Why Knoppix 3.4 is delayed again ...

I think some may have misinterpreted my earlier post. I do not want to do away with the cd knoppix. Undeniably it needs to be there. I just want an option to download an official cd version or an official dvd version. You can fit a lot of compressed software on a dvd. And it would be nice to have that option. Even if it were available for free download I think that people would be willing to pay for a kitchen sink version uberknoppix dvd rather than spend hours downloading it to burn. It would be ok for Mr. Knopper to make money for his efforts wouldn’t it?
As far as what to remove to fit the cd, I think remove anything that can be reinstalled as an option with Fabian’s add software script or Probono’s Klik page. That way you could just download the removed software. Have the cake and eat it too

The trouble with choosing what to put in is that Knoppix is that it is so useful for so many things. I wish other software had those kinds of problems!! I use the Knoppix live CD to introduce Linux to non-users. It needs a set of utilities to that purpose. It must be a CD to be useful on most computers. And games. (I like to play freecell when I am burning with the live CD.) I use the live CD on my work computer that I must not modify. I use a HD install for my Linux distro. I need different group of applications for each task. Of course, there is a great deal of overlap. I am a developer so I like lots of development software. I do not usually use them on a live CD. is great for all kinds of stuff. I do not have DVD readers yet on any of my computers, my work computer can not be modified. But a DVD burning application would be useful for the future. How about an extra CD for HD installs with the software version of the kitchen sink? I do not have any problems with a DVD version, as long as I can get it on (more than one?) CD. I know that the distro was designed to be a live CD (cheers!) but many of the more serious users (or those wishing to be serious users!) have used it a really good way to install Debian. I have a T1 at work, but only dialup at home, so an iso is a really handy to build a system. The Knoppix distro is truely an impressive work! Thanks!!!

Just weighing in. I would not miss KWord. The games are a strong easy demo and good for evangelism, and usually not to big in footprint.

I would avoid a DVD. It is too big and will encourage bloat.

A link to install KWord or other packages would ease their omission and they could be on a second CD for those who don't have fast internet.

Two masters, one with 2.6 and one with 2.4 would ease the problems. Speaking English with some German, I don't see any language problem on language support, but don't feel I should express an opinion on something the may be quite important to someone else. Here again, this might be somefiles that can be relegated to a second CD.

Another thing would be to use pareto's 80/20 rules in making decisions. The old addage about you can't be everything to everyone. There are already many remasters for special interests.

Ok ppl!

I think this would pretty much soothe the up-and-coming flame KOFFICE vs OpenOffice... Why not kill them both, and instead do the following:

1. Include a universal /sources-list (*.debian.org) instead of regional mirrors, or - why not include ALL local source mirrors? How big would that make the /sources-list file? A megabyte? I think less... Inside this file, you could include a line or two advising newbies how to #comment out the mirrors that are far, and leave in those near them.

2. Include a whole section with links to installing applications (perhaps inside the KNOPPIX menu?) OFFICE TOOLS>KOffice, OOffice, etc.

This way, we can have it slim and fast (preserving the games for demo), and we can leave it to the user to decide on what to order in after a hdinstall. Not only we will save space, but we will also demonstrate this other strong feature - tools and apps on demand. Say, you need office suite? Go ahead, click on the link and in a sec you will have whatever selected INSTALLED on your PC with no fuss or charge... How is that for a change, huh? No vendors, no license agreements... click and use.

What do you say fellas? How feasible is this?

Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agent_smith

This way, we can have it slim and fast (preserving the games for demo), and we can leave it to the user to decide on what to order in after a hdinstall.

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But you are missing the point. Knoppix is, above all, a LIVE CD. Not a 1cd distro. It's nice that it can be hd installed, but many people (including me) can't/won't/are-afraid-of hdinstall, and a live cd with an office suite might be the right tool they need, and knoppix does the job (I'm not talking about evangelism here, although knoppix does a great job here). Why change that?

It's obvious that any software that is removed from knoppix will upset some people... but I'm confident that Klaus will make a wise decision.

I like agent_smith's idea. No, we can't remove all these apps, but making apt-get install accessible to the noob is an interesting idea!

Regards,
AJG

How? and where would the installed programs go if it can't fit into the ramdisk? I'm not exactly sure if this is a good decision when running a live cd. Certainly it's an excellent idea for hd-installs as that would give you a choice of packages to your preferences. For live cd's, though, it's better to have it already installed but reduce the duplication, etc, install KDE-core but not the entire desktop environment, lose koffice, some editors, I vote to keep kwrite, but all others should go, except for midnight commander (gotta have that). One desktop environment with one additional lightweight window manager should suffice. Some computers have problems with 2.6 so sticking with that one isn't exactly the best option, if anything, I would prefer a single patched 2.4.25 kernel with supermount, cpufreq, sata, and perhaps both apm & acpi support compiled in. This would give the live cd more robust (& reliable?) support for mobile computers as well as desktops using sata drives. That said, how about a 2 cd/iso option, one with the patched 2.4.25 kernel from above and the other with 2.6.5 kernel, both with the same base packages? All in all, this is Klaus' pet project, and I thank him for coming out with a live cd that enabled me to jump into linux with both feet.

My vote is the two most popular apps have to stay. Mozilla suite and OOo. These are really useful and new users don't care much about the extra time to load. They realize it's a cd drive running the system and it is slower.

Koffice can go. Everything that is a dupe in OOo should go. Also the text processing tools, who actually uses these much anymore?

Window managers are nice to have but why so many? A user who knows what a windows manager is surely knows how to do a hd install and get what they want. I would leave one lightweight wm for weak hardware.

Including nvida and ATI drivers and alsa is necessary. Some games are a real plus when trying to get new users interested.

Developers are the most likely to do a hd install and be able to download what they need anyway, so why include all the developer tools.

If the target is slanted to new users I believe it will be best for Knoppix, best for Linux and OOS people in general. After all it is new users we want not 16 text editors to choose from.

Maybe the previous version 3.3 could be kept around and updated, to serve as a version when the latest kernel isn't needed? After all a new user isn't going to know what is meant by kernel, much less 2.6.

Knoppix as a core system, that's my vote. Download the rest.

Just my 2 cents.

tb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A. Jorge Garcia

I like agent_smith's idea. No, we can't remove all these apps, but making apt-get install accessible to the noob is an interesting idea!

Regards,
AJG

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Allowing apt-get on a Live-cd environment will be difficult... as the filesystem is mounted under a read-only CLOOP file system. The easiest way would probably be to install all software under an /opt tree (either located in RAM or on some other media).


I would agree to take off KOffice and mozilla-browser/mozilla-mail. Konq's a very decent browser (especially the KDE 3.2 version!), and I see no advantages of Mozilla over Konq. Konq renders significantly faster than Mozilla, and I've never seen Konq have any trouble with rendering...


Also, maybe remove some of the development tools/packages??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agent_smith

I think this would pretty much soothe the up-and-coming flame KOFFICE vs OpenOffice... Why not kill them both, and instead do the following:

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I really, really, REALLY don't like the idea of Knoppix requiring extra downloads or installations. It's a live CD used for demoing or just keeping a copy of Linux handy for those of us who don't normally use it.

If you want a minimal or custom-tailored Linux install, go get Debian or Mandrake and install it on your hard drive. Knoppix should have everything right on the CD. Users running it right from the CD should not have to use the hard drive or download packages to get anything working.

I think asking users to comment out mirrors in a config file is totally out of the question. That would confuse the hell out of most people who don't use Linux already. That's very unfriendly, and like I said, Knoppix shouldn't require any configuration or installation.

Sorry, I think you misunderstand me. Don't we already have probono's klik project for installing apps while running off a liveCD? I thought agent_smith was talking about making apt-get install more accessible to the noob with an hdinstall!

BTW, the KNOPPIX CD is for the noob and the advanced user and the developer alike. This CD has a huge audience! To drop development tools I think is a huge mistake. Isn't one of the benefits of using Linux to have a programmer friendly environment???

Whatever you do, keep gcc and blackdown, jdk and jre as well as kwrite, kate, konqueror and konsole!!! My students depend on these every day!

Regards,
AJG

Some of you want newbies to download apps??? Get real! It took me 2 months to figure out how to get my printer and winmodem running when I first started. (some of you even helped me).

The linux jocks are going to install to HDs - it's the MS Win folks who are going to be nervously poking around - completely inadequate to the task of doing any kind of customization at all.. They're too busy trying to figure out what "mount" means to be doing any of that nonsense.

The live version (DVD or CD) needs to be as familiar as possible to Windows newbs. That means Open Office instead of KWrite. Let's face it, if you even know what KWrite is, you know how to get it on your own - not the same for Open Office. Windows folks need to know that what they have in MS Office is readily available in Linux, and they'll be expecting spreadsheets and presentations at a minimum. Also, most curious Windows people are going to be dealing with NTFS drives. That means that the 2.6 kernel is a must. It may not be perfect or stable, or what have you, but it's as close as we have to meaningful NTFS capabilitites. If you only have room for 1 kernel, it has to be 2.6

Almost any Windows user these days is going to have a DVD drive - Linux may be tolerant of outdated and obsolete computers, but Windows isn't. Now, that having been said, the best anti-DVD argument I've seen is for laptops, which cannot be upgraded with cheap DVD or DVD +/-R/RW drives. I hadn't anticipated this point, and it is a very good one. But, I never suggested that anyone should stop making the CD available. As a user, the best thing for me would be to have both CDs and DVDs at my disposal. But I don't think it's fair to insist upon that, since I'm not the one doing the work to make the disks or pay for them. All I suggested was that the newer technology and larger programs should switch to DVD. Knoppix 3.3 on CD is very capable and stable, and has KOffice and the older apps, and will run on older and more obsolete machines. It's a great solution for people who are worried about bloat. Just leave it up on the mirrors, and put subsequent versions on DVD. That way, leading edge folks who can benefit from the new stuff and Windows newbies will have what they want, and the minimalists can have what they want too. And if they're really into Linux, they know what to do to update or remaster. It's the folks who don't know how to do that who need it done for them.

Yes, if Klaus and Fabian are willing to produce both CD and DVD versions, great - everyone is happy. But if not, let's put the newer versions on DVD. Also, just so the CD version doesn't get left too far behind, perhaps every fifth version release or so could be a CD update. In some ways, Klaus has really spoiled us with the frequency of Knoppix updates - MS makes us wait 2-3 years or so for a new version, and then we have to pay for it.

Oh, and on the browser thing, I love Firefox and Thunderbird too, but (Firefox + Thunderbird = Mozilla), more or less. I prefer them separated, but hey, my bet is that there's some efficiency in having them combined into Mozilla. Konqueror does not have the same functionality, so you can't dump Mozilla for Konqueror. OTOH, Konqueror is the file manager too, so you can't get rid of it either, to my knowledge.

I demonstrated Knoppix 3.3 to my Windows PC User Group on Saturday. They were awed by what they saw. Many of these people are senior citizens with little computer knowledge and experience beyond Windows. They were familiar with Open Office and Mozilla from seeing and using Windows versions. They were impressed by the ability to use and experiment with Linux on the Knoppix CD without the need to change anything on their present computers. Over half of the people that attended took home a copy of the Knoppix CD (that's 40 copies) so they could experiment and learn more.

My suggestion is to provide Open office and Mozilla on Knoppix 3.4 but to remove K-Office and most of the other desktop programs (keep KDE and Fluxbox). Keep at least some of the games. Kernal 2.6 is an important step forward and should be provided.

As for games, the only really decent ones are bzflag and freecraft for LAN parties as well as tuxracer and frozenbubble for single player.

Don't forget xboard and gnuchess for play against the PC and FICS!

BTW, if you're including nvidia drivers, bzflag and tuxracer are good to test your acceleration.

Regards,
AJG

Removing the window managers really wont remove much space. Also, dont more people use ice than flux?

As far as tux racer, I've never had that run decently on my systems. And I run new stuff as well as old.

I vote for the DVD. Leave 3.3 on the CD and put all new versions on DVD....

I did a Knoppix HD install for a friend and here's what he uses the most:

OpenOffice
Internet
Kmail
Gaim
(and maybe the freecell and solitaire)

Anything more than that is just bloat to a beginner user. In fact my friend got confused when he saw both Konqueror and Mozilla, both as browsers on KDE. There's some uneccessary doubling up of web browsers, so one of them has got to go.

Most beginners to computers see computers more as a glorified communications device and typewriter. The beauty with Linux is that there are a whole pile of tools and other rescue goodies from the command line as well.

Keep the CD format. One poster commented that a lot of PCs don't have DVD drives, and I know this to be true. There's no point Knoppix being a rescue distro if it won't work on older drives.

Having said that, there are a lot fo things that can be cut, like duplicate office apps. (abiword, gnumetric etc.), all the other shells nobody ever uses. Some of the old Xwindow apps. Some dev tools. Qt parted can go I think... fdisk and cfdisk do the job OK.. and anyone who can't use those tools shouldn't be partitioning their HD anyway.

I think if anyone needs a whole pile of extra tools for a HD installation, there should be a second CD for HD installing. That would bring Knoppix into the realm of being a distro-capable live CD... but I don't see this as a bad thing because the Knoppix makes for a very competant Linux system base.

Also, Stick with the 2.6 kernel. While the 2.4 kernel is good and all, it is old, and some newer motherboards simply can't handle it.

Things to add: a firewall script and if possible, 3D drivers for ATI & Nvidia. Installing both of those is a pain, and if they were in there it would ease the burden.

As a nubee to Linux, but a programmer with 30 years exp. on everything from PDP-8 to OS/390, I might suggest that what to leave out on a distro is not so important as what to include. Who is the target audience? Is it a rescue disk? An introduction to Linux for newbies? It can't be all things to all people. For myself, Knoppix was an introduction to Linux, it being the first distro I tried (and I've tried them all) that ran "out of the box". Obviously, a big seller to everybody.

In a matter of a couple of days spare time playing, I had created an HD based version, an HD installed version, and had cut a new Knoppix CD from the install (with NO prior Linux experience) with a few application changes. It would seem that most Linux users could readily do the same.

I would think that "one of each" is enough on applications, desktops, etc. IMHO, the plethora of competing desktops, browsers, etc. is the single most important factor in the rejection of Linux by the average desktop user. I have my choice of five, all buggy? This is a good thing? It's been out HOW LONG and it's at release 0.9?! I know all the pros and cons, but I also know my grandma. You don't want to give her a choice. Off my soapbox.

This is a great job that you have done, really commendable. Good luck on whatever you decide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TerryD

I would think that "one of each" is enough on applications, desktops, etc. IMHO, the plethora of competing desktops, browsers, etc. is the single most important factor in the rejection of Linux by the average desktop user. I have my choice of five, all buggy? This is a good thing? It's been out HOW LONG and it's at release 0.9?! I know all the pros and cons, but I also know my grandma. You don't want to give her a choice. Off my soapbox.

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I agree completely. I recently read an "intro to Linux for Windows users" article and the thing I liked about it was that it didn't give any choices, it made the choices for you. You're going to use Open Office for office stuff, you're going to use Mozilla for browsing, you're going to use K3B for burning, etc. No choices, no BS. Once people get into Linux they will discover these alternatives on their own, in the same way that not all Windows users still use MS apps exclusively. Remove the choice and you remove confusion.

Holy Cow! This got into the long winded conversations!
I am not reading form this thread anymore, I don't have the extra 45 minutes a day to spend keeping up on it.

I am sure that you are all wondering why I am saying this... Well I will tell you. Everyone is saying the same thing! I got bored with it, and I don't think that anyone's input will make anymore of a difference.

It would have been better to keep it short and sweet. For example

Drop- Koffice, Mozilla, and the kitchen ksink.
Keep- OOo, Games
Add-- FireFox, Thunderbird.

drop all WMs, just keep KDE, GNOME, FLUXBOX.
drop KOFFICE keep OPENOFFICE

Perhaps we should simply have a number of versions? For instance, a CD with 2.4, a CD with 2.6, and a DVD image? I also like the idea of a limited APT setup, utilizing the RAM. Then again, a comp with more RAM would be able to get more apps than one with less.

As far as features go, ATI/Nvidia drivers, ALSA, and support for Broadcom/Atheros/Prism wireless cards (mini PCI too) I would very much like to see as I frequently use Knoppix on my Laptop. Many games are good for conversion as well. Redundant software and more than one or two text editors should be done away with as well. I also support adding FireFox and Thunderbird, as opposed to mozilla. Also, for backup purposes how about a good gui-based CD/DVD burning? Being able to read off a NTFS disk for instance, and recover data from it and burn to CD or DVD under knoppix would be great. I think K3b has worked pretty well thus far, so how about a newer version if one exists? As of right now I can't get data off my mounted NTFS disk with the current K3b.

I'm really looking forward to new versions of Knoppix!

Come on now, Klaus! We're tired of waiting for Knoppix 3.4 and it shouldn't be so complex to drop KOffice or whatever. You're the boss and you can read the posts in here, so just go ahead and delete whatever and get the damn release out NOW!
I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of this show.
Anyway, I don't understand the lack of space. Why are there multiple shells, browsers, office suites, a tee timer (small but totally useless), and now several kernels? Why not just drop kernel 2.4, some shells, KOffice, and some of the small (IMHO useless) programs?
Do whatever you like Klaus, just do it real soon!

Klaus,
Thank you for spending you time so that all of us can download this valuable product for free. I hope that our input has been helpful. Please take your time. Whatever time you need. Some people might get too excited and make demands because they are anxious. Please take this as a complement, not a sign of lack of appreciation.

Remove these 3.3 packages in the upcomming 3.4:

Remove KDE's support for different languages. Keeping only english and german. Remove czech, danosh, spanish, french, italian, japanese, dutch, polish, russian and trurkish. It will save over 100 Mb (uncompressed).

Remove gcc-2.95 and cpp-2.95. Nerds will still do their own remastering or hd-install.

Remove xpdf, since acroread is better.

Sitll not enough? Start looking at firefox in place of Mozilla, and maybe remove KOffice.

I do appreciate Klaus Knoppers work but the Knoppix 3.4 release date has been pushed back for more than a month now. I expected to come home from my easter holiday to find Knoppix 3.4 released. All I got was a new pushed deadline.
Give us a date once and for all now!

Getting rid of hdinstall utilities is a mistake. One thing KNOPPIX is good at is as a Debian Intallation CD.

As to bloat, I thought we had this arguement long ago. Wasn't KNOPPIX going to be KDE specific and drop GNOME? There is a GNOPPIX project out there for that! I mean, don't just drop the GNOME desktop, but all its related apps and libs. Many liveCD distros keep tons of libs so you can run all those apps. Well, get rid of the apps so you can get rid of the libs and the bloat!

BTW, adding a KNOPPIX service for installing nvidia would be nice! How about a service for starting an ftp server or an apache server?

TIA,
AJG

The following is my wish list because I also use them in Windows:

Gaim
Mozilla (and it's mail features)
OpenOffice
XMMS (not the same as Winamp but the GUI is virtually identical)

Hello there!

As far as I could see, most people here didnt bother to concider what Knoppix is actually for or might become..

Before I'd start to tink about what to remove this is the first step:

I understood: Knoppix is used as a Demo for people that have no experience with Linux AND for rescue-reasons.

It is NOT a real Distro although it is possible to copy it to HD.

Whats more: There are a few people that do really work HARD for something that everybody can enjoy for free.


Concidering this I come to these possible solutions:

The Live-CD needs to be compatible to as many Systems as possible (drivers etc)

As a Demo it needs to have a selection of serveral games. (dont tell what your favourites are, because it will be different with everybody), they dont need that much space anyway
The CD has to be used as easy as possible for the all-day-work (wordprocessing, internet, etc) [great job here up till today!!]
Important is also the speed. You cannot use programs that need minutes to start and work with, BUT the compatibility is far more important. As a newbie I wouldnt want a fast program that cannot display my MSWord files properly.
I'd get rid of programs that are the same kind (99 - 100 % the same!!) and are not able to be speedy and or compatible enough!
One program is enough to handle for a newbie.

As a rescue-disk it needs to have certain tools that can rescue Data on serveral media (CD, DVD, ZIP Disk, USB-Disk, external hds and everything important I might have forgotten) and modification tools, network tools and so on. I think I dont need to tell you what I mean because you might know that much better than me!!

There are serveral programs which are really usefull on a HD - Install but are not really usable from CD as well as the other way around.
Now thats a tough one.
On a HD Install the pro's are easily able to install what they need or take a disto of their preference but what about the newbies?
My suggestion would be: a small selection while installing:

- install the CD
- install the CD WITH additional usefull tools from the internet (only with cheap / fast Internet connection)


As for the DVD: Remember me talking about compatibility? ;-)
But a DVD distro once in a while would be really fine by me. Remember also: it doubles or even triples the work to be done here!!
Maybe there are some willing people to take over the work for special releases? like an USB - version or a 250 MB release for small CDs and of course a DVD release? I cant do it. I'm somewhat a user but cannot remaster or understand fully what I do here ;-))


Whatever you do: it is good that you take your time! I hate a software release that should be on alpha stadium and is called 1.0...

Keep up the amazing work! Hope I gave you some ideas.

PS: If there are some things I got wrong you can tell me. It is possible because I am new to this world although I gained a bit experience. Don't flame, just write a pm or somthing...

Back again. I view the DVD as the worst possible mistake. It provides to much space and opportunity for bloat. We will have multiple everything.

Presently there is 2GB of apps packed on a single CD. The DVD would permit 12-14GB of material. It would require a data base to keep track of and simply overwhelm most users. We can locate that quantity of material any day on the web, if we want to wade through and organize it.

There have been several who council one of each. To bury the multiplicity of apps which perform the same function.
Amen!

The multple applications for the same function are a confusion factor to the noob and the lazy. People with strong opinions that the provided single application isn't the one they want should be able to find and install the one they prefer.

I have installed serveral word processors in the past and really never gotten beyond Open Office. It does what I want and the purported advantages of abiword and the others are not pressing enough to encourage me to spend the time to get comfortable with them. If I get inspired to try or need a feature from a new word processor, apt-get and the debian resources can address my needs. I feel the same is true for other types of applications.

KDE 3.2.2 is coming, and we are still deciding which packages must stay and which should go.

KDE 3.2.2 will bring lots of bugfixes, but I suppose it will also bring some MB. So we will want it. And we will take out some more stuff from knoppix.

So please hurry up before KDE 3.3 come!! ;)

Well, here my 2cents
OUT: Koffice, Gnome & gnome stuff like "gnome console", gnumeric, and maybe 1 or 2 kde-18n-XX
IN: KDE 3.2.2, The Gimp 2, kernel 2.4 & kernel 2.6, OpenOffice 1.1.1 (latest great releases :))

Keep up the great work! Thanks Klaus! Thanks all people involved in Knoppix! You rule!!!

Do you realize that in just 4 days, there have been well over 12,000 reads of this thread????? People are obviously very passionate about this topic!!

What a testament to the loyalty to this product. I would like to echo the earlier post in pointing out that strongly voiced opinions should be taken as a serious compliment rather than as criticism. And the idea that you may have to limit scope speaks to the incredible versatility of this product. Clearly, it already is a lot of things to a lot of people, and the thought of removing someone's favorite app stirs some primal emotions not typically observed in your garden variety nerd.

Wow!

Hello team!

I think some people misunderstood my point about apt-get. I wish to have this (and sources-list) included ONLY for the HD-INSTALL option. That out of the way, I think some things came out clear:

1. Knoppix is about KDE - Gnoppix is about GNOME, so we should stick to KDE, and lose everything there is to GNOME - environment, libs, packages, etc.

2. Lose all languages BUT us & de

3. Take your time - a quick 3.4 full of bugs is pretty much as bad as not having 3.4 at all... ;)

4. Remove duplicating instances of software - with newbies in mind, they should have one app for each task, whereas discovering new/alternative apps should be a process, not a confusing abundance. :)

5. Possible drivers for nVidia and ATI, next to ALSA will be an excellent addition to the 2.6.x kernel.

Regardless of the fact I already lost a 100 EUR bet whether Knoppix 3.4 will or will not be on time, I am pleased with this thread - once again Klaus, Fabian and team think more of US ALL (no matter how ungreatfull we are). Thank you!

Smith

Dropping local language and keyboard support will be a major error. I'm 9x7 bilingual and know how to use my danish keyboard with a US layout so removing local features wouldn't kill me, but it will certainly deter newbies and normal users here in Denmark.
I've previously posted a request asking for a synchronous keyboard change in KDE and consoles. It still annoys me that I have to change the keyboard layout in consoles and KDE.
Elderly people typically don't understand english or read it real slow. Domestic languages are a big plus to Knoppix like the games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j.drake

Almost any Windows user these days is going to have a DVD drive - Linux may be tolerant of outdated and obsolete computers, but Windows isn't. Now, that having been said, the best anti-DVD argument I've seen is for laptops, which cannot be upgraded with cheap DVD or DVD +/-R/RW drives. I hadn't anticipated this point, and it is a very good one. But, I never suggested that anyone should stop making the CD available. As a user, the best thing for me would be to have both CDs and DVDs at my disposal. But I don't think it's fair to insist upon that, since I'm not the one doing the work to make the disks or pay for them. All I suggested was that the newer technology and larger programs should switch to DVD. Knoppix 3.3 on CD is very capable and stable, and has KOffice and the older apps, and will run on older and more obsolete machines. It's a great solution for people who are worried about bloat. Just leave it up on the mirrors, and put subsequent versions on DVD. That way, leading edge folks who can benefit from the new stuff and Windows newbies will have what they want, and the minimalists can have what they want too. And if they're really into Linux, they know what to do to update or remaster. It's the folks who don't know how to do that who need it done for them.

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You obviously didn't read my post, did you?
http://knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=43528#43528

Well, I'm probably used to being ignored by a number of people, but I think I had a serious point or two to make - please, this ignorant view that *everyone* has DVD drives, or can get them needs to be stopped. This may be true of many newer computers that /home/ users have, but it is not true of a majority of computers out there. If it is a demo tool, one should be able to put the *latest* copy into someone's work machine, and watch the wonder of it in action. I've used in on a consulting job or two as a data recovery tool, and no DVD drive was to be found, nor did I need so much bloat. What did I really need? All my favorite command line means of accessing things, as well as OO.o to verify M$ Word files were present and intact; Konqueror, for convenient tree browsing; K3B for burning the data to a CD-R (it was simply awesome in one case that there was an independent burner - in the other case, I just put the files on my USB key from bash). We give out Knoppix discs to students for one class so that they can write, compile, and test simple C programs - and when we show demonstrate it here, we certainly don't have DVD drives, even on our brand new computers, for the reasons I elaborated on in my post. For Knoppix to be all that it is, and more, it must meet the lowest common denominator, namely CD-ROM, and spread the word about how good Linux is, letting people test the waters with it, on *any* computer that is available to them.

Oh, I read it, I just wasn't convinced by it. Didn't mean to insult you, though.

Also, as you pointed out - "We've deliberately ordered them without DVD drives " - they are so mainstream and ubiquitous that you have to take special pains to NOT have one. You made my point for me. Even Celeron computers are being sold with DVD players as standard equipment.

Although it may be true that you had no need for them at the time, the time will come when that won't be the case. I'm not trying to second-guess the wisdom of that decision, but clearly there may be consequences associated with it - among them that you may have to buy replacement drives for them or replace them when an important application like Knoppix goes to DVD.

History shows that software inevitably grows over time, and the distribution media along with it. It's going to happen - it's just an issue of when. . . . . All I'm saying is that the time is now (at least for the option).

j.drake: I don't know what wonderland you live in since you have infinite access to DVD's but I sure would like to know.
I'm in Denmark now, we're reasonably technically advanced and I do indeed have a drive capable of reading DVD's in my laptop, but I have no DVD burner, you insensitive clod.
How am I supposed to burn a DVD image WITHOUT a burner :?

Most people don't have a DVD burner. Since Knoppix is mostly distributed over the internet, having DVD only is pointless and would kill knoppix. I would say only 1/3 to 1/2 of personal computers have a DVD drive, and less than 5% have a dvd burner. I am just making those numbers up though. Most work computers are a couple of years old as well and won't have a DVD burner.

I suspect some people in this forum prefer quantity vs. quality. Wrong attitude!
A compressed CD should be plenty. The rest is spam and fluff.

It's not smart to dump all Gnome libs... that would include GTK, and too many useful apps depend on GTK -- hell even WINE & some builds of Mozilla depend on GTK....


If you're just talking about GNOME libs, hmm, they don't take up too much space.



Please don't make Knoppix a DVD-only distro, for all the reasons mentioned above!!