Why Every New Version of Knoppix Don't Work On my PC?

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05-06-2004, 07:35 AM
bongski55

Why Every New Version of Knoppix Don't Work On my PC?

Linux Distros are supposed to get better,right? Unfortunately that is not the case for one of my 2 PCs. It's a celeron 433 based self built. It used to work up until version 06-06-03 of knoppix then the succeeding version won't boot at all.
Then came 3.4 which is still experimental. Still it won't boot.
Some of you might jump into conclusion that I have an old pc that needs replacement. Well I do have an athlon2400 based pc that works ok with the latest knoppix. But my point is,how will you ever convince people to switch to linux if every new version does not work on a particular pc? Compare that to any version of a certain OS which works on 99 percent of PCs?
05-06-2004, 08:09 AM
garyng

I would not convince anyone to switch to linux, only geeks should try it.

However, this is not the problem of linux but how it is packaged. Knoppix never boot on my machine out of the box because it includes an aic7xxx driver which conflicts with my hardware(I need noscsi). The question I would ask is, how many PC has this kind of hardware ? less than 1%, so why is it there ? Oh, another situation, the debian installer(old one at least) has some thing like a cciss driver(a RAID stuff) included by default which is even rarer.

I believe linux packages aiming at joe users should take a page or two from Microsoft and package only those things that works on 99% of the average PC, which is IDE/PCI. That would significantly reduce this kind of confusion and frustration. Those that is not covered(and fail to boot), well most likely people using exotic hardware knows their way to find the right thing.

my 2 cents.
05-06-2004, 08:39 AM
horo

Cheatcode scsi instead of noscsi ?

Hi,

yes, this aic7xxx (and maybe other scsi) driver does a lot of bad things. I have one computer with only scsi disks (aic7xxx) and also there I have to boot in expert mode to avoid hangs after testing the scsi drivers :( . I think it would be better to create a new cheatcode "scsi=xxx" or "scanscsi" so the majority of users isn't bothered with these problems.

Just my 0.02 EUR

Ciao Martin
05-06-2004, 09:05 AM
garyng

For all fairness, the issue with distro like KNOPPIX which boots from the CD-ROM is that there isn't much space left on the boot image(1.44M floppy) so it is impossible to put the whole PCI id database there and write the script to scan it.

NT/W2K etc. needs 3 floppy for bootup. May be the latest change to ditch the boot image in KNOPPIX can cause a rewrite of how and what driver would be loaded with a more up to date PCI database, at the linuxrc level. This should make it works better, including USB/1394 support.
05-09-2004, 03:54 AM
user unknown

I guess it should be mentioned, that knoppix works on older hardware too.
A friend of mine uses it on a 233 and a 400 Mhz laptop.

Perhaps you (bongski55) should mention some details of your hardware - perhaps someone has a solution..l (most exotic devices first)
05-09-2004, 05:14 AM
bongski55

Quote:

Originally Posted by user unknown

I guess it should be mentioned, that knoppix works on older hardware too.
A friend of mine uses it on a 233 and a 400 Mhz laptop.

Perhaps you (bongski55) should mention some details of your hardware - perhaps someone has a solution..l (most exotic devices first)

Yep,here is my old post.http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...930&highlight=
05-09-2004, 07:19 AM
user unknown

Well - that's out of my scope.
Had luck with my chipsets.

Bootparameters didn't work, I guess?
05-09-2004, 11:59 PM
Fabianx

Re: Why Every New Version of Knoppix Don't Work On my PC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongski55

Linux Distros are supposed to get better,right? Unfortunately that is not the case for one of my 2 PCs. It's a celeron 433 based self built. It used to work up until version 06-06-03 of knoppix then the succeeding version won't boot at all.
Then came 3.4 which is still experimental. Still it won't boot.
Some of you might jump into conclusion that I have an old pc that needs replacement. Well I do have an athlon2400 based pc that works ok with the latest knoppix. But my point is,how will you ever convince people to switch to linux if every new version does not work on a particular pc? Compare that to any version of a certain OS which works on 99 percent of PCs?

That _is_ a kernel problem. So your bug report should go to there. Mandrake, SuSE, Red Hat and most other ditsros have patched kernels.

We use mostly plain vanilla, which avoids hardware problems on most machines.

Of course you could try to boot with 3.4 and kernel 2.6.

To the scsi-issue: There are more people using it, than you think. SCSI is not exotic and also Windows with some version makes problems on one of my PCs, which has to use noscsi.

But what is the difference?

With knoppix you can use noscsi, with many other distros not ...

Btw. afaik aic7xxx was dropped from Knoppix miniroot long ago. Dunno if its there again ...

cu

Fabian

PS: As far as I know Knoppix still has one of the best hardware-detections, yet.
05-10-2004, 09:16 AM
baldyeti

I *do* depend on aic7xxx for knoppix to work on my EVO workstation at work!

I had no idea it was causing problems on some HW; maybe it would be a good idea to reverse the logic and let the users who have a scsi adapter type a"scsi" cheatcode, instead of forcing the majority of IDE machines to disable it...
05-10-2004, 11:08 AM
garyng

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldyeti

I *do* depend on aic7xxx for knoppix to work on my EVO workstation at work!

I had no idea it was causing problems on some HW; maybe it would be a good idea to reverse the logic and let the users who have a scsi adapter type a"scsi" cheatcode, instead of forcing the majority of IDE machines to disable it...

That was my suggestion too. People with SCSI devices usually know their way to find information, not so for joe public buying Windows ME/98 preinstalled machine. BTW, it is not about IDE but conflicts with my Inspiron's LCD circuit, how can one ever been able to imagine that :-)
05-10-2004, 03:22 PM
Cuddles

To be fair to Knoppix, with the interest of M$ Os's in comparisopn...

I had Win98, it did "ok" on hardware detection, if you think that the OS can "detect" a new piece of hardware, and then allert you of the fact. But it failed on the "install" part of that "detection".

I used Win98 since it came out, still have it on one of my "old" computers, it would boot, and yell about "new hardware found", then go into the "driver loading", burp, and say "I can't find a driver." -=- This kind of practice usually happened when you were using a "Logitec" device, but has since become a M$ hardware issue as well.

I used to have a Logitec trackball, Win98 "knew" it wasn't a "normal" mouse, but would fail in setting anything up other than a "normal" mouse, then I got a M$ Explorer Optical Wheel mouse, which, again, Win98 would realize is not a "normal" mouse, but would fail to do anything about it.

I got used to "having" to use the driver disks, which threw in not only the drivers, but "support" programs, just to use the features of the mouse, like the wheel. I can honestly say, with Knoppix v3.2, and v3.3, I have yet to think about drivers, or install programs for support of these mice. I just booted, and the wheel works fine. Examining Control Center, my mouse appears to be a "normal" mouse though. Yet my wheel works, and I can set different scroll amounts for the wheel.

Only problem I seem to have with Knoppix, is the screen (monitor) sync from any video card I have ever had. All this ever required me to do was to provide a "standard" boot command line when I use the CD -=- boot: knoppix screen=1024x768 vrefresh=60 -=- this has been the hardest thing I have had to deal with, when it came to the CD. It (the CD, and Knoppix) has found everything in my computer, and set it up for me, which is not something I can say for Win98. Just changing a M$ Natural Keyboard to a "standard" one, required removal of the "support" programs and drivers, in Win98. Not so in Knoppix hard drive installed.

Recently I added a second video card in my Knoppix (hard drive installed), and the video worked fine. I had done the same thing in Win98, and that wasn't the greatest amount of fun. The system "still" acts funny when you try and change settings on one of the video cards, and usually causes the next boot to come up in Safe Mode, or throws the system into a "locked" state to just "tweak" the resolution of one of the cards.

Windows works better because most everything comes with driver disks, and support programs, to get them to work in Windows. Whereas, in Knoppix, you are left to deal with it on your own. But, in most cases, the drivers already exist, or are already supported "directly" within the OS.

To be completed fair about the controversy of Linux and Windows. For my mom, I would get her a pre-installed, and configured, Linux or Windows system, and for those, I know, who have installed a hard drive themselves, or can locate the CPU inside there computer case, I would give Linux. From what I have learned about running Knoppix, is the answers to issues are just not {b]given[/b] to you, they aren't just installed, like in Windows, you have to work on them. You have to look for them, and resolve them, mostly yourself, the OS doesn't help you out. In Windows, you install a device, plug in the driver disk, and "most" of the time, it works. In Knoppix, you install something, and if it doesn't work, you find out why, not the OS.

Power of an OS can be measured in many ways, some of them can be in how messed up the system can get to do something, or to install something, or how much work it takes to resolve an issue. This reminds me of a close discussion I had with someone who wanted "power" in a programming language. I told them that Basic was not as powerful as C. In which case they failed to understand, and I had to explain. In Basic you can't create a program that could "eat" your OS, or hard drive, and in C, it is very easy. I told them that in C, you can create a program that points to any location on the system, and just begin writting to it. I told them that I had a few "collegues" that had done just that, accidently pointing to a memory location that was for the hard drive buffer, and began to just load the location with garbage data. After they understood, they happily went back to Basic.

Linux provides more power over the system, than Windows. Being in the "roll out" of Customer Support for Win98, I know that many people can't handle the power of Linux, and should stay with Windows. People had to be "trained" on how to shutdown there computer, "no, you just can't pull the plug, or turn off you computer, anymore..." -=- These people thought you just turn it off, and now you have to perform a "graceful" shutdown. The people I dealt with would actually go out to there "snail" mailbox, when the computer told them "They got mail". (honest)

I could go on, but the truth of the matter is, for some people, they shouldn't have that kind of power, even if they "think" they want it. Some people are "born" Windows users, and others "grow" to either be Linux, or learn to be. I, for that matter, am a "learner", I was easily "blinded" by the beauty of Knoppix, and have since, not regretted the choice to move to it, but have looked at it as a "severe" learning process. Almost every day, I learn something new about it, and welcome the next challenge to "un-hose" my system from something I have done to it. [not happily, I might add, but, I do welcome it :)]

Whenever I break something in my Knoppix, I think back to my Win98 days, and begin to reach for my Win98 install CD, only to remember a lot more "hell" with the OS, and "come to my senses", log on to the internet, and view/post here for answers. I am learning, slowly, but then again, having more than ten years of M$'s Windows, it is a different beast to understand the thinking of Linux.

Just my two cents worth,
Cuddles
05-11-2004, 12:47 PM
Fabianx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuddles

To be fair to Knoppix, with the interest of M$ Os's in comparisopn...

[...]

Just my two cents worth,
Cuddles

Well, I now really miss the possibility to vote for your post. I would rate it a 11 of 10 :-).

That was a very good and insightful post.

You could post something to slashdot next time we are hitting it ;-).

Thank you,

cu

Fabian
05-11-2004, 12:57 PM
Cuddles

Fabianx,

Thank you, I think :?:

I can be "wordy" when I post about what I "feel", but in "The Lounge", I always post what I feel. As for the other Forums, I tend to post "wordy", but with the resolution. It comes from my "years" in phone support, explain, and then explain some more, etc...

( I never realize just how much I have said, until it shows me the completed post, and then, I think, sheesh, did I "really" type that much :?: )

Hopefully, I don't bore anyone, at least :D

Cuddles