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Would someone please explain this to me as I really don't get it.
Yes, you get hardware autodetection, but how many people really switch hardware every other week or so? Testmachines? why not. The lack of security compared to debian style is IMHO quite severe with autologin and lack of passwords for ttys.
Markus
I can't agree more, the only thing I can think of is... That this "beginner" install would be just like a hard drive installed booting of the CD. That way you get your persistant home and configs, but still have all the other limitations of booting from the Live CD. (?)
Your guess is as good as mine, from what I hear, not having v3.4 yet, and only going off what issues are being "posted" here in this site. Maybe its an "evolution" of the "poor man's" hard drive install? In a way, I want to think that the reason was for people who don't want to use the CD, but want to install it, but, my cross-thinking is, why? I would much rather have the Live CD on a "CD" for the recovery and utilities of thus. Then again, this was probably from a "suggestion" in the "Ideas" Forum, how about in a classroom setting? You could "install" Knoppix to a Computer Lab's machines, and still let everyone work on using GNU/Linux, but have it easier than having to always have a CD in the drive?
Just some ideas, I really don't know why, but, I am sure, this forum is going to be dealing with people who "accidently" install with this option, and wonder why its just like the CD for doing things, and not able to do things...
Ms. Cuddles
Thanks for your thoughts Cuddles, you're probably right on all accounts.
Bingo! Part of the mystery to me is why it's named beginner. My first spontaneous thought when installing for the first time and seeing the options would be:"Great. I'll just choose beginner mode and let the installer choose the default packages for me".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles
I can see the usefullness at having these options, but I do think they're named misleadingly. Especially beginner mode.
Not sure here, but, I would say default and beginner could be the same way...
When asked, during an install, for default mode, I would think that would be what you are thinking... Whereas, beginner mode, does sound closely to that, ( I've done way too many Windows installs, and the term "default settings", or "default options", are used a lot to install "standard" options or features ). I never use them, I usually use the "custom" installs, because I want to know just what it is installing, and how.
But, I, again, agree with you on the terminology of the usage of "beginner". It has many conotations, from beginner as just learning, to beginner as not having things enabled on you. This all sounds like they should have come up with an advanced, or guru install option... ( if they did, it probably just drops to a Command Line Interface, and says: "OK, you do it then! If your so smart" ) LOL
As a side note though: this "beginner" option isn't like the "window decorations" option, during booting/installing, because with the window decorations, if you accidently set them too high, you can still go back and decrease them, without having to re-install. Not so, it appears, with this "beginner" mode.
Just some thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles
:DQuote:
This all sounds like they should have come up with an advanced, or guru install option... ( if they did, it probably just drops to a Command Line Interface, and says: "OK, you do it then! If your so smart" ) LOL
Oh well, 240.5 MB down and counting, so I'll have a look at how it's like. There is surely a grand thought behind these namings the purpose of which completely eludes me. In the mean time I'm quite happy with knoppix&kanotix and the minor quirks aren't going to change that.
Cheers
I don't know all the merits and demerits of it, so I can't speak for or against it. But I do think it might be good to take off the "preferred way" designation it has in the installer script.
I vote for the addition of a "total newbie" intallation option which does the same as "tohd" plus install a GRUB bootloader.
Not sure about this, I don't have, nor installed, v3.4 yet, soon though, but...
I think a little more descriptive dialog on what the "install options" do, or don't do, would greatly enhance the whole process. In Windows, you can select, or highlight, the option, and it explains what it does, and doesn't install, or set. One line text that only tells you what the option is, is, way to non-interactive. Sometimes a list of what options are available, is not enough for someone to make a descision on.
Even in Windows, you have "Typical", "Everything", and "Custom" - but you highlight it, and it will tell you what most of the options it will include are. If a person is going to install a Operating System, and not be able to change those options unless they re-install again, that can be rather limiting, especially if it doesn't tell you what you are going to miss, or not get, if you choose that option.
For me, I was daunted by the "one liner" install options in v3.3, what was Samba, do I really need Network programs and utilities, and such. I had no clue what Samba was, or what I would use if for, I don't have a network card, so, not knowing what service it was called, or the "sniffing" utilities, was useless for me, but it installed them anyway. I did a "normal" hard drive install, and then spent a few days "ripping out" all the stuff I don't have, don't need, don't use, or would ever use. This kind of thing is far too much for someone who just gets there feet wet in Linux.
Windows, at least in v98, and v95, had an intuitive installer: it looked at the hardware you have, and determined what was needed to run it, support programs, utilities, etc... If it found a modem, it set up internet, common dialers and scripts for them. If it found a sound card, it set up stuff for sound, etc... Knoppix already does the "hardware detection", just seems to throw it away when it comes down to "programs" for them, it assumes you have everything, and does everything, even if you don't have it.
During the v3.3 install, it asked me if I wanted Samba started at boot, first thought was, what is Samba? Then, what if I do, and what if I don't run it? Will the system boot still, and when would I use Samba????
Knoppix, by its installer, assumes you know "everything" about Linux, or Knoppix, all of its programs, etc... And a newbie, as I was, doesn't have a clue about anything this stuff is, or what it does. Maybe the installer could be "elaborated" a little... ( ? )
Do you want Samba installed?
(Samba is used for xxxxxxxx, or if you need support for xxxxxxx)
Do you require network card support?
(this would include network programs and sniffing utilities. Does your system connect to other computers, other than the internet, through a cable plugged between your computer and another computer in the building? This would be network support)
Do you need support for PCMCIA cards?
(don't know what a elaboration of this would be, used to be on a laptop only, but not any more)
As it was in v3.3, I was only asked about Samba, and no help provided on its usage, or intent. Knoppix, from looking at its installer, lends itself to the "image" its for "techies", because you have to speak its own language, and newbies don't know the "lingo" do answer these kinds of questions.
Just my thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles
I totally agree about adding GRUB!Quote:
Originally Posted by probono
And I am still wondering what beginner mode actually provides? Can no one give a CLEAR answer?
I have it installed on my system, but am closer than I ever thought I would be to removing it, and simply using the LiveCD when needed - its original purpose I understand..
On the other hand, I saw your latest klik collection today, and was impressed by the additions, so I'll give some of those a try first :-)
regards
Can't you install GRUB instead of LILO now? I'm almost certain that the install script will allow it now, if you edit the .knofig file in the appropriate place. I think I did so in fact when I was messing around with it...unless I'm just going crazy. :D
Well I do a beginner's install.. haven't tried a debian type of install.. I'm about to format and do the debian install, about the autologin thing.... the beginner's style doesnt do that
Another thing.. the beginner install has done everything that debian could do for me.. so... well ill see what the difference is right now
Also, what security problems are you talking about?
Yeah, I seem to recall trying it once and finding it to be pretty much a debian-type install that just does the extra hw-detection stuff at every boot. I didn't really play with it long though. I think I still prefer the debian-style, if for nothing else, just because it boots faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROhan
yeah... i just got done installing.. and umm... it's the same except for the autoconfiguring stuff in the beginning.
So.....
Also, it doesn't load any quicker
I don't really see the drama
Took me 15 minutes to get knoppix 3.4 with 2.6.5 kernel installed, and up and running, and as secure as I needed.
Boot time is really no different to any other 'full linux' distro that I have installed.
(Apart from a problem/bug with Xine) everything works perfectly. This is the most productive install I have ever undertaken (as opposed to the tedious fiddling that one has to go through to get a standard Linux install 'just right')
yeah knoppix is definetely the most painless installl.. if you are a newbie the partitioning thing could sorta get you, but I honestly believe you shoulnd't use linux unless you understand partitioning or cant find out about it in another way
Oips! Looks like I shouldn't have spoken too soon. If the beginner style install really gives a cleanish debian with hardware autodetection, by all means go for it if the boot time is reasonable.
I thought it was some kind of variation of the knoppix style install :oops:
I'd still go for the debian way, but that's just me.
I use linux because I have the option of not touching the partition in anyway in linux.Quote:
Originally Posted by PROhan
I don't know what that meansQuote:
Originally Posted by garyng
Not sure, I had to re-read the post, to be sure, but, I think:
Means, you don't have to mount the drive, if you don't want to, and add into this, you can mount it as read-only, write-only, or with read/write access - In Windows you have the option not to "mount" a device, but not much choice, speaking about Win98, myself, once a hard drive is "mounted", it can not be done with specific "options", R, W, or R/W - unless you do a global file/folder properties change, with attrib to set it to read only.Quote:
I use linux because I have the option of not touching the partition in anyway in linux.Quote:
yeah knoppix is definetely the most painless installl.. if you are a newbie the partitioning thing could sorta get you, but I honestly believe you shoulnd't use linux unless you understand partitioning or cant find out about it in another way
If this is what you mean, then yes, the mount in Linux has a lot more options in protection - because you not only have the "mount" for drive protection, but also individual user protections.
Not sure if I got that right, or not, but thats how I read it,
Ms. Cuddles
linux file system can be on any block device and partition is only one kind of block device but it needs not be. I can use a simple file on FAT/NTFS as the block device, or a read only file on CD-ROM/DVD, or a nfs mount or just a ram disk and the list can go on. So it is possible to have a diskless workstation with linux, but not Windows(well early days one does with some kind of DOS accessing Netware/Lanman share and launch 3.1).Quote:
Originally Posted by PROhan
For modern day Windows, one needs to know about partition but just that it is shielded by the installation program, not so for linux.