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I don't get a log on screen when login to knoppix, the desktop appears can someone tell me what is wrong, do I need to change a setting.
When I logout of knoppix, my machine power down completely, can someone tell me what is wrong, do I need to change a setting.
Can I make an assumption here... Are you booting off the Knoppix CD, or have you done a hard drive install of Knoppix :?:Quote:
Originally Posted by chain
If your answer to the above assumption is - You are booting off the CD - then nothing is wrong with your Operating System - as noted in the "sticky" on Root Passwords, you do not need to login to Knoppix if you are running off the CD, and, as far as the shutdown is concerned, that is a normal behaviour too.
If, on the other hand, you are not booting off the CD, then, yes this is a issue, and maybe even a convern. But, I would guess you are running off the CD.
Hope this helps,
Ms. Cuddles
If you did install to your hard-drive you must've done a knoppix-style install. This is normal for that type of install. If you want the logon screen and to have more control you should reinstall choosing either debian-like or beginner.
ChampagneMojo,
I am seriously getting confused, especially with the new Knoppix v3.4 coming out, and I haven't gotten to installing it yet...
With Knoppix v3.3 - I used knx-hdinstall - which appears to not be an option in the newer version...
What appears to be there now, is more options, and more installers, and I am getting lost on what I want. I know I don't want beginner, but I think thats an option in one of the installers, and not an actuall installer itself.
From what I know, knx-hdinstall gave me a "knoppix" install, with Debian, which I like. From what I am hearing, I want a "debian-like" install, ( I think ? )
Can someone who has run through the Knoppix v3.4 installs, run down what "installers" are available, how they are run, what options they have, and what they will "ultimately" setup, limit, or do??????
I want to make sure that after I install the new kernel 2.6 with Knoppix v3.4, that I am not doing the repeatedly "gut 'n' re-install" just because of a lack of information and running the right thing during the install process. ( I'm already going to have a lot of fun, as it is, trying to re-install all the "apt-get install" stuff I am going to loose again, I'd hate to add insult to injury by making a bad install on top of that too )
Add into this wrinkle that I am also attempting to "multi-partition" this install, which I have not done on previous releases of Knoppix, so I am in complete dissarray here...
Thanks for any, and all, assistance,
Ms. Cuddles
Good question/suggestion!!!! There's a lot of misinformation and folklore being spread around, complicated by changes in terminology. I would love to see a comprehensive discussion of options, maybe as a sticky in the HD Install section. We need to define:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles
Poor man's
Beginners
Knoppix style
Debian Style
knx2hd
knoppix-installer
knx-hdinstall
What's what? Which ones can be changed, and which still need cheatcodes? What are the limitations? What are the recommended partitions and file system formats, what bootloaders and where to install them, dual boots with single drives, dual boots with dual drives.
I'd like to see one comprehensive go to, without personal bias, telling users what the options are in one place. The, once we all agree, let's put something in the docs that is up to date and comprehensive.
jd
Yeah, it is confusing Cuddles. You want either the debian-like install or the beginner's install.
The debian-like install will be like what you got with knx-hdinstall. The beginner's install is the debian-like install with the hw-detection that you get in the knoppix-style install (I haven't messed with this one myself really...I've stuck with debian-like). Just don't choose the knoppix-style or knoppix-like or whatever it's called...because that will just basically put the live-cd onto your computer...you'll have all the cons of the live-cd in terms of control over the system.
And if you haven't used knoppix-installer before, you should look into the .knofig file. It has some options you can set that aren't available through the gui of the installer..
There's a short description of the types of installs in: http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/KnoppixInstaller
As for the different installers, there's only one AFAICT, knoppix-installer
root@ttyp0[sbin]# ll|grep installer
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 May 16 11:40 k2hd -> knoppix-installer
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 12025 May 16 00:04 knoppix-installer
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 417 May 16 00:04 knoppix-installer-latest-web
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 May 16 11:40 knx2hd -> knoppix-installer
Had to finally boot up the 3.4 just to see it :D
So, if you do beginner's and get the hw detection, can you still manually configure hw if it changes to something the hw detection can't detect? Do you still need cheat codes with beginner's.
Confusing nomenclature. I assumed that beginner's = poor man's without a boot disk, but from what C-Mojo is saying, it sounds like that's Knoppix-style. Counter-intuitive, but hey, that's why we need this. So, with Debian-style install, does it install all the apps and drivers that are already on the live CD, or do you have to do than manually?
jd :? :?
That's a good question. My guess is that the beginner's install might not be a good idea if the hw-detection doesn't like something on your system. But hopefully someone who actually knows can tell us.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.drake
Yes, it does just like knx-hdinstall did. As long as all goes right, your apps and drivers are set and you just reboot and have a nice hard-drive install. The only differences are improvements IMO...you get to choose your username and you have a few more options through the .knofig file.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.drake
Ok,
I think I am starting to understand this, possibly, and I still could be wrong in this assumption, so, here goes...
Appears that there is only ONE installer -=- knoppix-installer -=- which, by reason of deduction, all things I have heard of "beginner", "debian-like", lnoppix-like", etc... all must be options that are asked during this installer. In other words, you fire off this single installer for Knoppix to do a hard drive install, and are prompted during this install, for the different options that I mentioned, and others have mentioned, in this "current" thread. ( am I correct on this, my, assumption? )
Confusing :roll: you could say that - before, only one installer I knew of, it did what I wanted, and now, I come to think that more than 10 installers must exist for a hard drive install in v3.4, only to find out, not ten different installers, but, rather, one installer with 10 different options. Sheesh :shock:
I would also take bets on the fact that the installer ALSO installs twenty languages that I will never use, support for things other than XFree, etc, etc, etc... that need to be "manually" ripped out ( like you had to do with v3.3 - right? )... Oh well, progress doesn't come cheap, it appears...
Ms. Cuddles
Exactly right. The one install script ("knx2hd" is a symlink to "knoppix-installer") gives you the option of either 1) Knoppix-style; 2) Debian-style; or 3) Beginner-style installations. All of which are covered in detail on that page Markus mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles
To reiterate what champagnemojo said: Run the installer and configure the installation, then quit the installer. You can either choose to save the configuration file (".knofig") using the filename and directory of your choice, or you can let the install script default to saving it as /root/.knofig. Then open ".knofig" with your favorite text editor and check out the options (it's well-commented).
After you've changed what you want to change -- e.g. you can tell it to use a particular hard disk partition for /home -- save it, rerun the installer, and reload your ".knofig" configuration file.
(Sounds harder than it is. You'll see.)
AaaaaaHaaaaaaa :idea:
I get it now :!:
Eco2Geek, I did check out the link to the "Docs" that Markus provided, and walked through the processing tree, very helpful...
From what I gather, now, the installer actually "wants" you to, or gives you the ability to, break up your root and home areas - through the installer - I don't think that was an option in my previous installer -=- knx-hdinstall -=- good addition, IMHO.
Clarification though: If I run the installer, tell it to save the .kno file, then ? exit ? the installer, make changes to this .kno file, does the installer just "re-generate" this .kno file from scratch the next time I run this installer? ( or does it re-read from the existing .kno file if it exists? )
I am quite sure that everyone is just saying "run the installer, and you'll see", but, one) I am a little leary about the "gut 'n install" at the moment, two) I am working on setting up just exactly what partition sizes I want/need for this new version, and finally, three) I am still coming up with stuff that I forgot I will need to re-install after I scrub my drive and install v3.4
I am usually very maticulous about my system, and its workings, when I plan to install another version "on top of" what I am currently running, and using, I tend to plan everything, all the way down to the smallest detail. I have had "far too many" - re-installs - with my current version to "finally" get it right, and hope not to make this same mistake on this version. ( it took me three "gut and re-installs" - from scratch, to get what I have now, with v3.3 )
I am trying to get as much information as I can before I actually comit to the install, with the idea that forwarned is better than after-thought.
Thanks for the help, my next plan is to examine partition sizing, and the /home migration that I already have "backed-up" on another partition/device. Hopefully, all I need to do is tell the installer to "point" my home into the partition I set up, and then copy/overwrite the installed /home with the "saved" one I have now, then go through all the apt-get install stuff to get me back to where I am currently, with the new install. ( I hope )
Ms. Cuddles
Cuddles, the .knofig doesn't get re-generated each time. It's only altered if you choose to save your configuration. But like eco2geek says, you either need to save it to a location you'll remember or just let it put it in the default place. Just to beat a dead horse, one example would be to choose to save configuration and then enter /home/cuddles/.knofig into the blank. Then go into your /home/cuddles directory and edit that file with kwrite or whatever you want to use (making sure to do so as root). Then re-run the installer and choose load configuration and enter /home/cuddles/.knofig again. When you click on start installation you will see the options chosen...so you can make sure that everything is as you want it. I know it sounds confusing, but it really is rather intuitive once you go through the configuring stuff a bit. The good part is you can get the configuration all worked out before you actually install. So if you're worried about it, it might be good to go through the configuration parts of the gui a few times and get used to it before you actually intend to install.
Cool ChampagneMojo,
Sounds like they really thought out the installer on this new version, and very welcomed addition, I might add - with the new installer in place, maybe, just maybe, Knoppix can start contending with M$ as far as install issues. :D
I think this new install is going to be "a piece of cake" compared to my previous issues with Knoppix and its hard drive installations, very nice, and appreciated. ALSO, thank you for puting up with someone who tends to be "one card short of a full deck" when it comes to "gutting" her own system. ( read as cautious )
Ms. Cuddles
I seriously doubt this :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles
After all, with the MS installer all you have to do is keep hitting <enter>, reboot five times, and answer yes to all accounts on "I have read the licence agreement and will happily let windows bork up my whole hard drive"
You might want to be a bit careful when restoring your home. I foresee some trouble with getting into X and KDE. I tried this when switching from knoppix 3.3 to kanotix bh5, and finally solved it by renaming my old user, created a new one with the old name, copied over the lot excluding .X-files and .kde (some desktop shortcuts in .kde I did copy over as they present no problem).
I was referred to this thread and have learn't a bit about the installer here, thanks guys. However I must say that the knoppix-installer is still quite confusing. What really is the difference between "beginner" and "debian" installs? I tried debian and it failed to detect my mouse wheel etc (beginner detected it ok). So it seems I gain an easier setup by choosing beginner - but what do I lose? (boot time is still very quick with beginner). BTW, beginner seems a poor name for the option as it implies a simpler install than knoppix which seems to not be the case? The name also connotes naivete so people will avoid choosing it - I did!
Also, the manner in which .knofig is handled leaves much to be desired. The installer does not tell you the name of this file anywhere, nor that is is loading a previous config from it. I only discovered that such a file exists after searching on the web. When you do a "save config" there is no hint of how this relates to the .knofig file. Where in the sequence of install steps is the .knofig file read and what does it control? I tried to use the partitioning option and it just ignored my changes. I just thought I'd make these comments so that the next guy stumbling along the same cave as me may read my scribblings on this wall. No, it's not just you.
MarkB,
First thing, not to say that the reason for the beginner option is named so that no one would dare pick it, but, from what I read, the beginner option was decided on for the level of expertise in Debian/Linux, since, again, from what I know the setting does...
Once a person decides on making Knoppix a full-blown Operating System by installing it on their hard drive, at least this was the case in v3.3, the Operating System no longer does a hardware detectiion on boot. This, then, causes any new additional hardware being installed on the system after the install, a venture in adding the hardware manually. From the knowledge that I have gained in the reasoning behind the beginner option, is, that, the hardware detection is still performed, after the install onto the hard drive. True, the naming of this option does have some conotations, some of them are like walking around with a book called: Linux for Dumbies, but, the naming makes since, from the logical stand-point. The user does not need to delve into the "fine art of installing new hardware, and getting it configured", if the option is used, hence, beginner makes sense.
As for the notion that you were "pointed" to this topic, and your statement that, I just thought I'd make these comments so that the next guy stumbling along the same cave as me may read my scribblings on this wall. No, it's not just you. - I never really thought about the fact that someone else might follow my scribblings on the wall, and then, add there scribblings to the wall too, interesting analogy. Maybe, when everything has been said, and the wall is complete, we may all just sit back and admire the art, and nothing will be left to say.... ( we can only hope on this one )
I consider all threads, or topics, on this forum, to be, one of enlightenment, of learning, and hopefully, when I ask a question, others gain from its answer, just the same as, I hope, the ones asking questions, that I answer, gain from it as well. As an old school teacher once said: There is no stupid question, only the ones not asked. - coming from a background in support, Win98 Customer Phone Support, I have always held true to my teachings... Never diss anyone, treat all with respect and dignity, provide fast and efficient service, and never, I repeat, never, screw someones computer system. ( The last one was my own personal addition to my training. ) -=- Even though I diss M$ a lot, they did show me that they cared more for there customers than they did for there employees, and they instilled in my the creed of my support, "the right answer, right now." -=- Not sure if that has changed with the newer versions of M$ OS's since Win98, but, I am still a follower of what they said, back then.
Hopefully MarkB, our paths of enlightenment may cross again, some time in the future, and at that time, we both may be more knowledgable to answer the questions that we pose...till then, all I can say is, that this forum has been a constant source of knowledge for me. I run it, I support it, and as the USA likes to say, long may it be.
Just my thoughts,
Ms. Cuddles
Cuddles, thanks for your help. There really is a wealth of information in these forums as long as one is willing to trawl through it. The main problem is that everything changes so often that the "static" documentation just doesn't remain current so the forums end up being the only information source that can keep up with the change. This certainly seems the case with the latest Knoppix.
Anyway, are you basically saying that the "beginner" installation type does not lose anything wrt to the "debian" install? (In fact, it gains the automatic hardware detection so it actually superior?).
MarkB,
I have heard "conflicting" information on the "beginner" install option...
I have heard that it does do a complete hard drive install, just like the other options, it does enable hardware autodectection ( during boot ), but, have heard that it doesn't allow configurations to be changed or updated. ( kind of like a "old" hard drive install and the Live CD mixed together. )
I can not be sure of this information, I do not have v3.4 installed yet, I am just going off of information I have read in the forums here. I have heard people ( from there posts ) that have used the "beginner" option, that reported not being able to "set and keep" configuration settings between boots ( this kind of action is closely related to the Live CD and the fact that it doesn't do the same, without usage of the "save configuration" in the menu. )
I have heard reports ( from the posts ) that people still are getting the hardware auto-dectection ( which in the older version of Knoppix, was only available without doing a hard drive install, and running off the Live CD. ) And lastly, they did run a hard drive install, using the beginner option, within the new version of Knoppix ( v3.4 ).
I know I read a idea thread that was posted in that forum, basically around the lines of "I would like to see the hardware detection still run on a hard drive install", and I think that "suggestion" is why the "beginner" option is in the new version. But, the person who suggested this "option" wanted to hard drive install the CD, and have the hard drive boot just like the CD, but without it. This has led me to believe that the "beginner" option is just a hard drive install that works just like the CD does. ( i.e. a locked down system, with passwords and configurations not able to be changed, with auto-detection of hardware, but physically being able to boot without the need of the CD or its locked usage of the CD-ROM drive. ) I think the person who suggested this "feature" wanted to use the CD in a school environment, where students could "beat" the systems, and not change anything. ( my guess )
Again, I can not be sure if this is exactly what the option does, I am only going off of what I have read, and what "problems" I have read people having. I am working off information provided by other people, and the problems they are experiencing. If, what I said above, is correct, that the "beginner" option is just another variation of the "Poor Man's" install, or a larger version of this, then it makes sense, when you try and figure out why someone would want it. In the right situation, it would come in handy, like my example, a school environment. The installer has come a long way since I hard drive installed my version of Knoppix, and has increased a lot of "options" to this point.
Used to be that you either had the CD boot, or you did a hard drive install ( which either looked like the "Knoppix" environment, or it looked like the "Debian" ). Now, though, you have a flood of install options, from Beginner, to Debian-Like, to Knoppix-Like, etc... ( this doesn't even add in the "past" option, like Poor Man's, which is still available. ) These options may, or may not, be the same as in the previous installer, I do not know. I have no clue what they set, don't set, what they install, or don't, and in many cases, I don't even know what the differences are between the options themselves. Yes, I am clueless with an installer, I admit it, and very shortly, I am going to be using it. ( July 4th weekend is the big day, v3.4 is going to go on-line on my system. ) I am sure of one thing though -=- I am going to be using the Debian-Like option. ( I don't "play around" with my bread 'n butter system, I am not going to "try" the other options out on this system, maybe a second system, but not this one. )
I hope this helps, a little, and that I am not just "rambling" here,
Ms. Cuddles
I had to mess around a little with the beginner's install just for the heck of it. It's not locked down like the knoppix install. You can still change passwords and such...but there are some big issues with it. You can't make changes to your fstab file from what I can tell, because it will just regenerate it at bootup. I didn't play with it long, but I assume you probably can't permanently stop the automounter and such as well. It's still not a bad option, especially for people wanting a system closer to what they got with the live-cd...but there are cons with everything. I'll be sticking with the debian-like too. :D
Pardon my dumb question - but what is the advantage of doing a debian-style install of Knoppix, as opposed to a straight Debian Sid installation??
BTW, I've figured out from her posts that Cuddles is a control freak, at least w/r/t her computer (and that's not a criticism). I just mean that I can't see her clicking a script and hoping that it does what she wants, just because it's easy. I was just at the Debian site last night, and they have an incredibly well-written FAQ and installer how-to that answers a lot of the questions that come up repeatedly, including questions relating to partitioning and the like. Looks like anyone who wants to micromanage every last detail of a HD install would do well to read those, and maybe even install Debian from Debian. Both documents are exceedingly well-written and very detailed. Picking through posts on this forum, I see a lot of "oh, just do this . . . ", but these Debian docs really take the time to explain the whys of what is going on.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing Knoppix or the installer or this forum, but I do recognize that different people have different needs. Some have no patience or understanding for the details, and need something analogous to the MS approach of a one-click, no options install. OTOH, for someone like Cuddles (and possibly me), straight Debian seems like the ticket for ultimate control.
Either way, I highly recommend those documents on the Debian site, and we might want to consider linking to them on the WIKI.
jd
Simple answer: It's one hell of a lot easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by j.drake
The last time I tried to install Debian Sid from CD images, I found out (after asking) that the (beta) installer was a separate download from the CDs with the packages on them. Also, the stock "nv" (NVidia) driver didn't work correctly, and X wouldn't run.
I didn't spend too much time trying to configure it correctly, since I knew I could simply install Knoppix or Kanotix instead, and what I got running the live CD was what I would get with a hard drive install. Nor would I have to spend time using apt-get or dpkg, since most of the apps I wanted already came with Knoppix/Kanotix.
Thanks. I suspected as much. I gather that there's a trade-off between simplicity and control, apparently, with MS at one end of the spectrum, and Debian at the other, with Knoppix in between. Given my inexperience, I think I'll likely take the Knoppix route this time. :)
Still, my only other HD dual boot install experience with Linux involved Mandrake, which went too far in promoting ease at the expense of control, and I wound up installing LILO to the MBR by accident, despite the fact that I was DELIBERATELY trying to avoid doing that. :evil: By the time I caught the problem it was too late (I was trying to keep XP on the first HD, linux on the second, mount the bootloader on the second HD, and then reverse the boot order of the HDs in BIOS, specifically to keep Linux the hell off of my XP HD).
Thanks again for all your help. I still recommend the Debian guides, though. Very informative. I learned a lot.
jd
Control Freak :!:
Now wait a minute here... I am not a control freak, I just don't like "unplanned" things, especially if I have the time to plan them, or to do something that I don't have a clue about, i.e. lack of information.
J.D - if you told me to click something, and that something I didn't have a clue about, I would probably "trust" you, and click it. For this same reason, if I was going to tell someone to click something, I want to be darn sure I know what I am talking about...
Also, I actually like Knoppix, wouldn't trade it for anything, really... But the new installer isn't the same as the previous one, and since the choices you make, can have reprecustions afterwords, I wanted to be sure of what I was doing. ( still not sure if I would "recommend" any specific "options" to anyone though, I'm really not that sure right now. ) Heck, I'm still a newbie here, haven't been running Knoppix for more than a year yet, a couple of weeks with the Live CD, and all of it from v3.3 -=- and this is my first "major" upgrade of the OS...
I don't think I'm a control freak, maybe a cautious "detail oriented" person, with a "knack" to ask before she does - but a lot of that came from M$ - and the fear that anything you do in Windows could literally break it. Having done a few apt-get installs, or apt-get upgrades, and have your whole "apt-get" get hosed, has made me even more "cautious" with Knoppix, too. I do like the "Windows" click thing, but, have enjoyed getting "intimate" with my system and its hardware with Knoppix -=- not a "power" thing, or a "control" thing, but, I do like root, for its ability to take away "control" and "power" when it isn't necessary :D
So, J.D, I might just have to see those docs on Debian - more information and enlightenment, make for better decissions and judgement...
Ms. Cuddles
LOL! I figured I'd get a rise out of you! :D
Seriously, though, I think you'll like them. I'm also one of those people who needs to understand, and I'm a newbie too.
jd
Here's one I particularly liked. I remembered you saying that you were going to install over the fourth, so I was hoping to make you aware of it in case you needed it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddles
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/install
HTH
jd
Hello everyone,
Thanks for everyone for the discussion, which paved the way for me to do my HDD install witout much problems. I did a beginner type install. The problem is I started Knoppix with icewm and did the install. When I booted the HDD install it went to the KDE desktop!
A BIG dissapointment is the removal of LATEX and LYX. LOL! I have to use word processors again? :(