Step by Step Instructions
Mr Probono and J.Drake
You have hit the nail on the head. Your comments are absolutely right. I am technically proficient in Windows (pre XP) and came to Knoppix with version 3.3 to plan the migration. Being a complete newbie it has been a slow process, but with the help of the odd posting here I have cleared some of the hurdles.
I have a desire to find an easy way to get Windows users, not necessarily technical, into using Knoppix. I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.
I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!
One other slight problem seems to be that the 2.4 kernel seems to work slightly differently than the 2.6 and sometimes the kernel combination with the fromhd and bootfrom cheat codes does not always work. I had this problem with this Windows NT4 machine whereby only kernel 2.6 with bootfrom worked! I'm intrigued to know if this is true with a Windows XP machine as well since it is usually NTFS formatted.
I'm rambling a bit but the idea of step by step instructions that gets (Windows) users set up with Poor Mans Install, able to store their efforts in a persistant home and keep ther settings from one session to the next is an absolute must to get them to convert. I might add that step by step instructions on how to get on the Internet is probably the next step!
Keep up the good work guys and if these step by step instructions appear I think you are going to make a lot of people happy.
Re: Step by Step Instructions
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
I started looking at grub today but actually getting it seemed a bit of a nightmare. I eventually got a download from Tucows but then you had to compile it! That is not the way to get a Windows user going. More investigation needed!
Nothing could be easier.
apt-get install grub
grub-install /dev/hda
update-grub
reboot
Now that's assuming you have only 1 hdd and things are kind of simple. None the less GRUB is easy and Debian makes it really easy
Afer you become accustomed to apt-get I guarantee you'll want to puke everytime you have to go find a windows app, make sure it isn't spyware, click 6 or 8 times just to find the damned download and then hope the installer works!
I don't know what all this tohdd and fromhdd stuff is and a begginner type install seems a nightmare. I just use Kanotix to install Linux in a few minutes flat AND have alot of apps (virus & spyware free of course) and it's just done and over with period.
I too am proficient w/ windows (occupational hazzard) but I can install Linux in a very short time with nothing more than 3 floppy disks and no licensing b.s. to deal with. Windows OTOH takes hours to install by the time you get all the patches, antivirus, anti-spyware, and a multitude of reboots. I guess it comes down to what you have the opportunity to learn. I do know this; If everyone in my offfice used only Linux I would be very bored with pc maintainence.
It's impossible to lock down windows so that users cannot install apps so of course they put on all those silly tool bars for IE and ridiculous cursors! Then they cry to me. "Oh my computer keeps doing this weird thing....."
I detest that OS and I detest Redmond for 'dumbing down' the pc. Of course without windows users when would I have fun? For example, I scan for wireless networks in my neighborhood, (the windows users don't even bother to change their ESSID to something other than 'Linksys') find a shared printer and send them a little something. mwahahahah
Re: Step by Step Instructions
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
I am slowly coming round to the fact that Poor Man's Install is probably the safest way, although I haven't sorted out the boot issue yet. I still use the CD to boot in but this doesn't sound ideal.
I use lilo. Here is an excerpt from a HowTo I am preparing (for remastering from a HD install). A rough draft of the HowTo is posted under customizing & remastering.
Quote:
Step 2: Install the 'toHD' system & set up to boot from lilo
To install, just boot Knoppix with the boot code 'knoppix tohd=/dev/hda1' at the boot prompt.
In order to boot the 'toHD' install without requiring a boot disk, a directory /boot containing at least the minimum required files to boot Knoppix must be installed on hda1. Using the HD install on hda5, first create the directory then as root do the following:
For Knoppix 3.3:
The minimum files are vmlinuz and miniroot.gz which can not be directly copied from the CD, they are buried in /boot.img. To extract the files, the boot.img must first be mounted on a loop device then on an intermediate mount point (use the existing directory /mnt/floppy) from which they can be copied to hda1. For simplicity we are just going to copy all the files in the boot.img.
/sbin/losetup /dev/loop0 /mnt/cdrom/KNOPPIX/boot.img
mount /dev/loop0 /mnt/floppy/
cp /mnt/floppy/* /mnt/hda1/boot
Then edit /etc/lilo.conf adding the following:
image=/mnt/hda1/boot/vmlinuz
label="toHDKnoppix"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/miniroot.gz
read-only
(Change "lang=" as appropriate, only include the home=scan & myconfig=scan if you are using 'persistent home')
For Knoppix 3.4
The required files are linux24, linux26, minirt24.gz & minirt26.gz. These are located in the directory /boot/isolinux on the CD and can be directly copied to hda1 from there. The easiest way is to just use konqueror and drag-drop the entire directory '/mnt/cdrom/isolinux' to /mnt/hda1/boot/.
Then add the following to lilo.conf:
image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux24
label="Knoppix3.4-24"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt24.gz
read-only
image=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/linux26
label="Knoppix3.4-26"
append="lang=us fromhd=/dev/hda1 home=scan myconfig=scan apm=power-off"
initrd=/mnt/hda1/boot/isolinux/minirt26.gz
read-only
Don't forget to run lilo to update the settings before exiting.
Now you can reboot into the 'toHD' install, change the settings to your preferences, set up your persistent home and save your configuration settings to hda7. Persistent home doesn't have to be very large as this is a 'temporary' installation but it does make using a lot easier as you don't have to keep replacing your desktop setup etc.
This assumes lilo is already installed as part of the HD install on hda5 which will become the remaster source. This will not be the case when you are just doing a 'toHD' install so you will have to install lilo while running from the CD or from the toHD install. I think you can do this, although I haven't tried. Lilo will have to go on the MBR and will have to include an entry from booting the windows system as well. You will probably have to copy lilo to /home directory to edit it then specify to use that config file.
Current ( 3.4 17.05.04 ) "Poor-man's" Install
Hi guys ,
Try here ......
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12520
for a well researched method , utilising Linloader instead of GRUB/LILO to avoid potential MBR corruption .
I've found the ORDER of instigating your Pertistent Home and Saveconfig settings is critical to success , but enjoy being able to craft my boot arguments on a floppy ..... and especially seeing , on boot , 'Starting Windows 98' , then flying into Debian ..... I LOVE that !!!!!
Enjoy .
Re: Booting and Newbie Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. Turn on the PC, get that CD-ROM drive tray open, Live CD in place and tray closed before the memory check is complete or it will boot from the hard drive to Windows! Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!
Not a problem for me on and Athlon XP 2800+. In my experience, people get sick of waiting for the boot and want a new machine, then they get the new machine, and the boot is just as slow. As I elaborate further below, this is purposefully basic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
Windows users are used to turning on the PC and going to get a cup of coffee while it boots up. I exaggerate a bit, but you get my meaning. Using the Live CD as a boot device one has to hang around waiting for the initial image pause and then get typing the cheat codes before the defaults take over. I prefer to let it go without intervention.
I agree. I think probono is is looking into some of that. The experiences I've hade with bootloaders have not been positive, to say the least. We both thought that this link looked promising, http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...?p=53357#53357 , but I haven't had time to check out the method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
OK, I still have not got my ideal solution but I am learning stuff and I am looking forward to what J. Drake and Probono come up with.
Hot off the presses. http://www.knoppix.net/docs/index.php/PoorMansInstall . It's on the WIKI. Since so many people complain that they can't find good information for "poor man's", I thoght we should post it under that title - that's how people look for it. REally, it's more comprehensive than a poor man's, as AJG pointed out earlier in the thread. I did back link to the "HdBased" WIKI page also, but to tell you the truth, that page is such an incredible mess that I can hardly make any sense of it myself, and I sure wouldn't expect a newbie to figure out what's outdated and what isn't, what works with what version, and all the "don't do this if you don't know what you're doing" warnings and complicated methods - Ay Caramba!!! No WONDER they can't find anything - It's a MESS!! My #1 priority was to get something up for Windows immigrants, who mistakenly believe that they need to go through a hd install in order to get the functionality they expect. I can't tell you how many times I've read in the last week posts by people which basically say, "I want to know how to do a hd install, but I'm a total newbie to Linux", and well-intentioned people point them to hdinstall articles and talk about editing scripts and apt-get, and the like. Windows people assume that they need a hd install because that's how Windows is. They need to be shown that there's a better option for them.
The how-to is purposefully basic - no editing, no searching, no downloading, no installation of external programs, no typing BASH at a console, no Root, and everything is done from KDE's GUI or the boot prompt using things the newbie already has. Admittedly, there are ways to fancy it up, but that's not the purpose of this. The purposes are simplicity, function, comprehensiveness and reliability. Later, we may incorporate links to fancier or more functional (but more complex) options, possibly including some ideas from Dr PC Tunes or Ruymbeke, as well as others, but we felt we needed to get the basic method out now.
Who knows, maybe more to come. :wink:
jd
Re: Booting and Newbie Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.
I too have seen posts about users who have had lilo 'screw up their MBR' although I have never had any problems. Perhaps this is because I have older machines & use Win98 & ME not XP and not NTFS. I don't think lilo is difficult at all, in fact it was one of the first script edits I ever made (at the time I was "proudly using Linux since last Tuesday"). Yes the default is to go on the MBR but you must put some sort of loader on the MBR if you are going to boot direct from the HD. I could write a step by step but part of the problem is that systems may vary & a detailed step by step would be specificy to only one configuration. And it wouldn't help if the potential user is reluctant because of concerns about screwing up the MBR.
Quote:
Because I use the Live CD as a boot-up device I am all fingers and thumbs at start up. ...Now, this can be achieved on my 350Mhz Pentium, but will it work when I get a faster machine!
Just rememeber you can hit the big red button before the machine boots without screwing anything up.
Excellent summary of what has been said BTW.
Re: Booting and Newbie Guide
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICPUG
Crashed Again suggests the use of LILO for booting. While LILO does the job, everything I have read about it suggests newbies should avoid it like the plague. It seems to want to go on the MBR and, of course, Windows demands its boot goes there as well. Other posts suggest it can be done but I have seen enough posts which say Help - I have lost my MBR/ Cannot boot Windows anymore that I do not think this is the first line of attack. Much more experience is needed to use LILO.
I agree LILO has some problems. But I think the bigger set of problems comes from "scripts" that try to install Knoppix (never really intended for installing on a hard drive) and do a less than perfect job of deciding where to put things, with the dsasterous results you mention. Normal Linux installers give you an option to put Lilo on the MBR or on the partition that Linux is on. What I suggest doing is to install Lilo (or Grub) to the Linux partition. Next install Smart Boot Manager or XOSL as a boot manager. This will let you boot your MS OS, Linux, CD's, floppies, and, should you have them, other operatings systems as well.
