Linux may be losing this average Jill

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09-10-2004, 03:17 AM
nishtya

Linux may be losing this average Jill

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...?p=59647#59647

To get cable up and running the score:
Windows 98SE - five minutes (includes reboot but not including time to find mobo CD)
Linux - 4 hours, burnt dinner and a pounding headache

I can no longer imagine I am going to be able to network this PC and my other without heavy duty tranquilization. The thought of throwing a router into this mix and another computer with a different nic and a different distro. YIKES. Not to mention I am toying with the idea of wireless so I don't have to fish a wall? I don't think I can do what needs to be done in linux, I have been messing about with linux for quite a few months now but there is no way I think I am going to be able to do this. In my wildest nightmares, how many hours (or days?) will it take me to network?
09-10-2004, 04:12 AM
CrashedAgain

Re: Linux may be losing this average Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by nishtya

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59647#59647

To get cable up and running the score:
Windows 98SE - five minutes (includes reboot but not including time to find mobo CD)
Linux - 4 hours, burnt dinner and a pounding headache

I can no longer imagine I am going to be able to network this PC and my other without heavy duty tranquilization. The thought of throwing a router into this mix and another computer with a different nic and a different distro. YIKES. Not to mention I am toying with the idea of wireless so I don't have to fish a wall? I don't think I can do what needs to be done in linux, I have been messing about with linux for quite a few months now but there is no way I think I am going to be able to do this. In my wildest nightmares, how many hours (or days?) will it take me to network?

It appears from your other post that you now have your netcard working (I think). The router should be easy, at least in my case it just worked, I didn't have to set up anything. I don't have wireless, I have seen some posts that indicate it may not be so easy.
Once you have both computers able to internet through the router, networking is a piece of cake. You have to start ssh on both machines (Knoppix->Services->Start SSH services) then just type 'fish://<username or root>@<other machine ip address>' (eg:[email protected]) in konqueror & you should be rewarded with a request for the other computer's password, then be connected to the other machine.
see this post:
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12327

Unfortunately, you are right about the hours of searching, burnt dinner & headaches. It took me a year to stumble across the 'fish://' solution. Linux (& KDE) really needs better organized and searchable help files.

Windows was not easy either. It took several weeks to get my two computers connected using windows "Direct Cable Connection" & I never did get it working right. The final straw was interference from some file in my over-bloated HP 990C printer driver (40Megs for a printer driver!!) which killed the DCC connection. So score one for Linux.
09-10-2004, 04:27 AM
mzilikazi

Re: Linux may be losing this average Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by nishtya

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59647#59647

To get cable up and running the score:
Windows 98SE - five minutes (includes reboot but not including time to find mobo CD)
Linux - 4 hours, burnt dinner and a pounding headache

Turn oven down to a lesser temp so it cooks slower and drink a good French wine. :) ok ok......

Quote:

I can no longer imagine I am going to be able to network this PC and my other without heavy duty tranquilization. The thought of throwing a router into this mix and another computer with a different nic and a different distro. YIKES. Not to mention I am toying with the idea of wireless so I don't have to fish a wall? I don't think I can do what needs to be done in linux, I have been messing about with linux for quite a few months now but there is no way I think I am going to be able to do this. In my wildest nightmares, how many hours (or days?) will it take me to network?

Don't fret networking. A router is easy to set up and has absolutely nothing to do with your operating system. Ideally your wireless router will also have RJ45 (wired) ports. ;)

What kind of connection do you have? (A)DSL, Dial-up, Cable, ISDN, Satellite?

Over simplified it's like this; Your Internet connection goes to the router. The router says "hmm, this packets is addressed to computer 192.168.1.100, and this one belongs to 192.blah blah blah......... and that's all it does in regards to routing. Now also there is the hardware firewall where you decide what ports to open and which to close. Ideally your ports will show as "steallthed".

Most routers have a web based interface for configuration. Simply point your browser to the URL provided in the manual. Usually something like: http://192.168.1.1/

K.I.S.S. Don't try to have an instant multi-machine LAN. Connect the router and then connect one machine. Do it with CAT5 cable. Get one box working. Go from there and add another box and then go for the wireless connection on one one machine. (this is addressing the headache issue again). Of course post your questions or problems here. There are lots of networking gurus that frequent this forum.

Linux & wireless. Those silly manufacturers (I'd rather call them something much worse than silly) don't make it easy. Attempts have been made to provide compatibility lists for wireless cards and Linux but........

1) These lists are compiled from emails, posts, etc. from users. I bought a card listed as 'works perfectly out of the box' and it did. Problem was that WEP didn't. Well the poster apparently didn't feel that was an issue. :roll:

2) Blasted manufacturers change chipsets on us all the time. A card model 123.blah might have a Prism2 chip today and an Atheros tomorrow with no model number change. What's more it is often difficult to know which chipset you're buying due to:

a) Mail order
b) Card design (cannot see the chipset)
c) Idiot salesperson.

Watch out for SSF (Short Serial Flash) cards. What's that? The chip has no firmware stored on it. It must be loaded everytime you boot. Sure, that makes for easy firmware upgrades but..... it's more complicated to configure and by no means do they work any better (or easier) than other cards.

Some cards work with Linux by using a 'wrapper' around the windows driver. I.E. driverloader and ndiswrapper. This may be an alternative.

I hear alot of good things about USB wireless.

One of the best resources I've seen for networking is here.

Suggestion:

Take a Knoppix cd (if they'll let you boot it), a Linux laptop or maybe even your own pc to the store to test the wireless card before buying. Maybe you have access to a store with liberal exchange policies.

Fret not, you'll do fine. :) I'll shut up now.......
09-10-2004, 05:04 AM
nishtya

thanks but I am going to hold off on the networking for a bit. This took a lot out of me. I was eyeing my direct x games I couldn't play online because I had been on dialup. And here I am with windows go zoomzoom internet. Tempting. Much more fun than battling every evening with this sort of stuff.

I have linux up on the cable although I am not really comfortable about how it is configured, it just doesn't seem right. Know what I mean? That fix is way too obscure. Oh, I did do shields up. Dead stealth in windows due to zonealarm but I flunked in linux. Port 1024 open. Any ideas? I use guarddog to configure iptables because I am hopeless at understanding the chains, bows arrows, whatever :roll:
09-10-2004, 06:15 AM
mzilikazi

Quote:

Originally Posted by nishtya

I have linux up on the cable although I am not really comfortable about how it is configured, it just doesn't seem right. Know what I mean?

Ummm actually no....I don't :) Tell us.
09-10-2004, 10:09 AM
eco2geek

Nishtya: I don't believe you're going to ditch Linux for a second. You've been bitten by the bug; you've put a lot of work into it. Face it: you're hooked. :wink:

Dunno anything about configuring wireless (plenty out there who do, though), but a router that uses DHCP and NAT (network address translation) doesn't require you to do any more configuration in Linux than it does to get a cable modem connection going.

Graphically, mine sort of looks like this:

Cable modem ---------> Router --------------------> Ethernet card in computer
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx -------- 192.168.0.1 --------------- 192.168.0.x
(IP assigned by ISP) -- (internal IP of router) --- (IP assigned by router using DHCP)

You must remember to change the administrator password on your router. There are books on home networking out there that list the default passwords of popular SOHO routers.

I just installed BH7a on a new partition, and couldn't get Internet access. Come to find out that eth0 is now the firewire port, and eth1 is my ethernet port (thanks, Kano). Almost tore some hair out over that.
09-10-2004, 11:27 AM
gowator

I have to agree with every last thing mzilikazi said.

Networking and linux are a perfect pair.

Some golden rules.... if you want to run an ethernet network or use a TCP/IP protocol then use a ethernet card.

70% of real linux networking problems are USB modems....
The other 29% are issues with WiFi and lack of config tools which is basically a legislation issue from the USA.

1% are real problems with the NIC .... or its too new.

The rest of the problems are usually ... user created.

Windows users expectations of networking are very weird in *nix terms. The idea of browsing the network and using CIFS/Samba stuff is just something Windows users viewed as networking...

linux is far more down to earth.... if you wanna set the system clock or sens X windows its all the same ..whereas windows makes everything complicated and then sticks a GUI over the top for some things that hide how complex it all is.

eco2geek: yep thanks kano!
I wasted 30 minutes getting networking up.... then ran netcardconfig and chose eth1.... (firewire was already finding itself as a NIC in BH6 btw)

however I cant see how anyone who understands a bit of networking cant do this...

nishta: If you are trying to fdo this from a liveCD then its hardly permanant and if you are using a HD install then the standard knoppix one is NOT the standard linux way, certainly not the standard debian way...

If you want to do this I would use kanotix or a Debian install.

Which one would depend on how you wanna upgrade or not....
Kano has a new BH monthly and BH = bug hunter, the idea is to install and test....
A stable woody install of debian would just sit and work...
only change what you need when you need to (like adding wifi support) and it will probably be easier...

settle down and decide if you wanna reinstall monthly or once a year?
09-10-2004, 04:06 PM
j.drake

Quote:

Originally Posted by gowator

Networking and linux are a perfect pair.

Surely you must be joking! (at least w/r/t wlan)

I find (Knoppix, anyway, don't know about other flavors of linux, but I expect they're worse) to be INCREDIBLY weak when it comes to wlan card detection. Take a look at the buglists, and figure out what percentage are attributable to failure to detect wlan cards (armchair guess - probably close to 25%, but I'm not going to take the time to count). I know that I posted one bug for the 2004-05-17 release, that is still unresolved (haven't even bothered to post it to the 2004-08-16 list until they catch up with, or at least acknowledge, the earlier lists). Take a look at the networking forum - my bet is that it's about 50% wlan card detection and config problems. If you're really a stat junkie, what percentage of those are still unresolved?

Thank goodness I use wired ethernet. I tinkered around with a Microsoft 802.11b card in a laptop, becuase I was going on vacation and thought it would come in handy. Tried it with Knoppix - it said it couldn't find the prism2 drivers in a certain folder. When I posted the problem here , I got maybe one reply from someone who basically told me that I should know better than to use a Microsoft product with Linux, implying some kind of conspiracy in marketing the cards (not one of the more thoughtful responses I've seen here). Looked for the drivers on the web, and found out that prism 2 is one of the more popular wlan chipsets, so there's really no excuse for this. Did some poking around and FOUND the driver on the Knoppix disk (it was in the kernel 2.4 branch, but the startup was looking for it in the 2.6 branch, because I was booting 2.6). Tried to boot 2.4, but it didn't boot at all. And since I'm not doing a hd install, there's not a whole lot of editing that will solve this problem. (BTW, this issue remains my poster child for why it is a mistake to have two kernels in one release - too hard to keep things sorted our without error).

AY, CARAMBA!!! I'm with Nishtya - who needs this aggravation?? Fortunately, I didn't need the wireless card OR Knoppix on my vacation (Windows performed flawlessly), and, like I said, my home setup doesn't use wireless. So I blew it off as one of those things that Windows can do that Linux can't (and to be fair, there are a lot of things Linux can do that Windows can't - don't mean to imply that either is necessarily better overall, but everything I've seen leads me to believe that wlan is not exactly Knoppix's finest acheivement).

Anyway, Nish, I'm not saying that someone here couldn't get it working for you, but I bet I could fish those wires for you a lot faster than someone could solve your Knoppix wlan problem!! :wink: (no, that's not an offer!) :wink:

jd
09-10-2004, 04:24 PM
gowator

Quote:

Surely you must be joking! (at least w/r/t wlan)

OK 25-29.... -ish....

Quote:

70% of real linux networking problems are USB modems....
The other 29% are issues with WiFi and lack of config tools which is basically a legislation issue from the USA.

The problem is the FCC rule that says 'the user must not be able to change the power level' which unfortunately means not open sourcing the driver and needing closed source firmware....

its really a unhappy coincidence and obviously not meant to do this but the effect is to hold back wlan detection....and proper config and leave developers almost guessing....

several of the manufactuerers want to release the drivetr specs but can't ....

Its not really fair on knoppix to blame knoppix....

For the lack of driver in 2.6 for the prism I understand the problem but again if you did a HD install it might work which is what I was saying earlier..about using kanotix...then you can set it up permanantly.

Quote:

Some golden rules.... if you want to run an ethernet network or use a TCP/IP protocol then use a ethernet card.

perhaps thats not clear enough but I should have said ethernet or fast ethernet.
Wifi Emulates ethernet but its NOT ethernet.
So I was saying implicitly the same as you.... :D
09-10-2004, 06:16 PM
champagnemojo

Kanotix contains wireless drivers not included with Knoppix. It picks up my acx-100 based card at boot-up....though I haven't really bothered trying to configure it yet (I only have wireless access at work and have never needed wireless here...but I got the card for $5 after rebate so I figured what the heck). Anyways though, find out what drivers are in Kanotix and what cards are well-supported and I don't imagine it would be too much of a hassle. If you insist on wireless that is. :D
09-11-2004, 01:17 AM
nishtya

wow, really got something going here :lol:

will try to get around to everybody:

gowater: I am far from a linux veteran. Running it for months makes me a dangerous newbie :wink: But been in IT for more years than I want to think about. All my linuxes are harddrive installs and debian style. Now, as for live CDs I generally have never run one for more than a weekend before going for the install. I settled on kanotix months ago after an lmsensors kernel-compiling debacle with knoppix-search for it here if you can't sleep some night LOL. But I am quite serious when I say how pleasantly surprised I was with windows (98 for goodness sake) over this cable install. It was quite wonderful. Oh, and BTW the live CDs generally give less trouble with networking and hardware issues, there is a reason but it escapes my ancient mind at the moment.

And a non-surprise, I am more locked down with stinkin windows 98SE (yeah, the security analyst at work couldn't believe, and she a fedora user) than I am in linux. I passed flying colors at shieldsup with zonealarm but flunked with linux and an open port 1024 (she doesn't think it a problem though) because I am hopeless with iptables, chains, manacles, whatever.

Oh, and my last resort would have been usb modem or using my usb ethernet adapter (which I am going to be using on the second computer...wish me luck folks :roll: ) I do think windows will also balk at that thing though, at least my 98 is gonna want the driver. I even need drivers for 98 with a usb thumbdrive.

Champagne: you are quite right about the wondefulness of the kanotix distro :) But I am disappointed in how the english forum is going now. I really wish I spoke german because I think that is probably still quite fine.

jd: right on about network card detection in linux in general !

eco: thanks and you know me too well. But I am spending more time in windows now than I have in months and my games are singing a siren call (no more latency problems :twisted: )

and now for a question probably as unrelated as you can possibly get to this thread. But this is a lounge and I can get away with it here--- would appreciate input/experience. At the same I have installed said cable...I have developed an odd monitor "wave or twitch" It is intermittent, quite strong but then it is gone. Just a big ripple out from lower left corner. I find it hard to believe it is coincidence but I can't understand how the cable could have caused it. I have relocated the pc and monitor several days prior to this cable install and spent plenty of time on it. But I did not develop the problem until last night when I got the cable. (the cable modem is well away from monitor. Interference really doesn't seem likely. So the only other new thing is the turning on of the onboard ethernet adapter. It is like degaussing but SILENT- what could be the interference that wasn't there before cable? I am not spending quite enough time in windows to note if it is present there...this is something that occurs maybe once an hour? Ideas? It's a cheap monitor, maybe on the way out you never know but such a coincidence :?:
09-11-2004, 01:39 AM
nishtya

mz...sorry I didn't mean to miss you 8) What makes me uncomfortable about the fix to "fix" the netcardconfig is what hoops it was to jump through. I really didn't ever think to EDIT a SHELL SCRIPT. I was looking for a config file. OK, I am a linux newbie stop laughing. But I googled for hours (and in debian forums, to boot) and came up with zilch except for that one post here that had a solution, for me anyway. I would think something as important as getting the network card configuration to load every time would be better documented. It makes me uneasy. Hard to explain, I think it is probably the wrong way to do it, much like my "fix" for the user can't get modem issue. :roll:
09-11-2004, 05:48 PM
nishtya

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...?p=59855#59855

it just never ends. The simplest of things. Cuddles where are you? Tell me this is better and I shouldn't go back over to the evil side........... waaaaaaaaaa
09-13-2004, 09:41 AM
gowator

I think part of the answers are in your own posts...
You have been using windows for years so of course you are used to the way windows does things...

editing a script is not the best way but occaisional bugs do creep in, the big difference is that you can actually fix this... if it didnt work in wondows it doesnt work whereas in linux it can usually be made to work...

New releases are tempting but you might want to ask WHY do you want to use BH7? Seriously apart from a couple of extra drivers...??

Its really tempting and its free but if your as old as me then you might wanna just put a stable working box up...
I have 2 main boxes...

On one I try and keep a stable distro...in fact its mainly testing but I just leave it and upgrade/install odd individual packges...
On the other I mess with distro's. It is frequently broken and often holds 5-6 distro's...

On your kanotix forum comment, couldnt agree more.

On your twtich, afraid it could be coincidence or moving the montor when you messed about but how about things like radio keyboards?
09-13-2004, 11:15 AM
nishtya

I keep two boxes too. At the moment the spare box has a more stable BH5, lindows & 98 - it is going to be used for trying out all those new distros I have been downloading. My main box here I have my BH7 and a very stable (for me) BH4 along with 98. In retrospect the BH7 probably was a mistake - I have held onto my BH4 very tight but finally gave in to the new version :twisted:. Since I am going to be networking soon and if wall-fishing is unsucessful I will be needing what support they have for wifi anyway. Ain't gonna be pretty. I will try fishing before buying the router :wink:

The monitor is a puzzler. I would agree with the move having something to do with it except that it was in this spot for a couple of days before I got the cable and the wave didn't start until the first boot in linux with it. And it was a very short distance move, maybe 25 feet. Coincidence is possible since this is an apartment and I have no idea what my neighbor on the other side of the wall right here is doing. They are a busy bunch over there and anything is possible. Seems to have calmed down a bit to once or twice a night. Hate to think the monitor is going. It's a nice samsung, cheap but very good picture and you know how hard it is to find that even in a more expensive one sometimes. I am trying to remember if I had hooked up this new surge protector BEFORE the move but I can't (getting old stinks, rilly it does:?) I have tried moving everything away from it except for that. I don't have any stepdown transformers plugged into it, though, they are down on the floor and probably no closer than they were in the old location. That's the next thing I try before just giving up and waiting for the monitor to get worse (I would like an LCD but just can't swing one - I really overextended myself with the cable, but boy it is nice :) )
09-13-2004, 11:44 AM
gowator

Hmmm.
WiFi is one suspect for interference but other things are like video-senders etc.

The support for Wifi doesnt 'need' a new release though.
It probably mans a new kernel but thats another matter and then the individual packages can be used.

My guess is you fell into the very easy habit of upgrading by new release when linux was just for fun and gradually added more dependant stuff to it.

If you learn how to use the boot loaders (lilo/grub) you can always add a new distro without changing anything and just add it to the boot menu...

I keep my 'homes' on a seperate partition but just link this from the one thats created for instance.
Anyway seriously- remember kanotix is a mix with unstable and testing. Personally I find few problems in testing but often unstable gives a complete hash because the deps are not all available so I always edit out the unstable and keep testing in my sources.list.

A good thing to do is clone the / partition completely at regualr intervals and before trying any dodgy stuff.
I usually leave 10GB for / and put everything else on a partition I call /share (160GB) this leaves me a 10GB space to make a clone of the install. (using partimage or just dd) you can make the changes and boot into the 'spare install' before doing anytihng stupid... have access tot he same documents (on /share) and use it for a while before making this your install and cloning this back to the original...
10-26-2004, 04:45 PM
Matir

Quote:

Originally Posted by gowator

The problem is the FCC rule that says 'the user must not be able to change the power level' which unfortunately means not open sourcing the driver and needing closed source firmware....

its really a unhappy coincidence and obviously not meant to do this but the effect is to hold back wlan detection....and proper config and leave developers almost guessing....

several of the manufactuerers want to release the drivetr specs but can't

In reality, all they need to do is build in a low-level firmware that limits the power to the regulation 100mw. Make this firmware closed source, if they wish. But they could build a higher level interface firmware that is openspec, which would permit opensource drivers for the chips. It's not impossible, the rules don't lock them into this.

And, I will have you note, some users ARE permitted to increase the output power of such devices. FCC Part 97 (Amateur Radio) users have shared-spectrum allocation, and as such, can use up to (I believe) 100 W, not that any chipset would be able to put that out.

Also, I noticed that my wireless card (through ndisdriver) limits itself to 20mw... what crap.