How to make a knoppix DVD UNCOMPRESSED

Hi
I would like to make a DVD version of knoppix (3.6 would be great)

but I would like to use the 4.5 Gb available space to put an uncompressed KNOPPIX file instead of adding more apps

like this there would be no need for a huge ram drive and it will be much faster I guess

Is there an easy way to do this?

It could be the same thing than the hdd-installed version of knoppix since I will use it on only one computer, but it has to work read only (since it's on a DVD) I will do a fat32 partition for storiing my data and configs.

that would be really great! :D:D

I would also like to know how to do this. :D

It would actually likely be slower.

The bottleneck when reading from optical media (CD or DVD) is the transfer rate of the drive, NOT the CPU power needed to decompress the compressed file. (Unless you have a REALLY slow machine.)

i.e. the slowdown induced by compression is nothing compared to the slowdown of having to read the data in an uncompressed form.

so, how is it?
is it actually slower when using uncompressed file system?
and by the way, how do we make such arrangement,.. that is not to compress the file system?
is it done simply by skipping the make_compressed_fs command?

rgds,
Guido

Yes, I've been giving this some thought myself. I have Knoppix 3.7 installed on my HDD right now, so I'm interested in burning the whole thing to a DVD, and if I could make it a bootable live CD that would be even better.

Ideally then, I'd have a bootable DVD with MY current setup. Of course it would also be my backup of my OS.

It should not be that hard.

sakiZ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zorxd

and it will be much faster I guess

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My guess is that it will not be faster, and in fact will be slower. You will effectively increase the amount of I/O needed to be done from the disc for any application. I/O is a bottleneck. I think you'll find that it's faster to read the (fewer) compressed sectors and then expand them with a little CPU power than to have the CPU waiting around idle while all of the data comes in from the uncompressed disc.

I saw a pratical application of this over twenty five years ago, back when there were people who still understood that optimizing space and speed is important. A programmer decided to use a form of dynamic huffman encoding to encode text coming from a database for a game, but was a little concerned that the added overhead to decode the huffman encoded text would slow the game. It turned out it sped it up because less disk I/O was used. And this was with a hard drive on a "mainframe" (even then faster than a DVD drive now) and much much less CPU power than you have sitting on your desktop. So unless the klopp decoding code is really really bad, uncompressing the klopp isn't going to be a net gain.

I don't think it would work at all.

The compressed image is in a linux FS wrapper.

The files couldn't have permissions on a iso standard and linux requires that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zorxd

I would like to make a DVD version of knoppix (3.6 would be great)

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I've done this. To the nay sayers, it works fine.

Here's what I did:

1) Mount the boot image.
2) Edit the linuxrc
- change cloop to loop
- remove knoppix-ized ash and replace with statically linked busybox with "mount" with loop mounting capability.
3) Make a bunch of symlinks under /static for the busybox components.
4) Unmount the boot image.
5) Uncompress the root ISO image KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX
6) Create a new ISO image - this is the trickiest part IMHO.

I'll put together a web page with more details if there is interest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ISoar

I've done this. To the nay sayers, it works fine.

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You didn't say if it's faster or (as suspected) slower. Give us real numbers please, including:
How long it takes to boot your Knopix CD.
How long it takes to boot your Knoppix DVD (on the same drive).
You CPU type and speed, memory, optical drive make and model.
What speed each the CD and DVD were burnt at (I ask this because a Knoppix CD burnt fast will often take much longer to boot than one burnt slow, due to a high number of retries required during boot).

In addition to booting speeds, you might benchmark the starting of some applications from the optical media, such as GIMP, and tell us how long each takes from first click until ready to run.

Klaus Knopper has remarked on the subject that DVD uncompressed is slower due to the I/O of data retreival.

Especially note that DVD .iso is limited to 2GB in media and usually translates to around 5GB of uncompressed format.

Trying to retrieve data from a 5GB store of data is bound to be slower than trying the same from a 2GB store. Decompression is a much faster operation then I/O.

Today's storage systems in pentabytes ...terrabytes... have horrendous problems in trying to retrieve data. Special techniques are required to implement retrieval. Considering this phenomenon may shed some understanding of the problem that uncompressing Knoppix DVD produces in retrieving program data.

Klaus Knopper has produced the fastest Live CD out there and has plans for a DVD version for next release. I eagerly await the release.

For me I don't care if it's faster or slower.

What I want to know is, can you install this DVD version to a hard drive?

See, what I want to do is, transfer my current Knoppix 3.7 install to DVD for reinstallation on an other computer.

Keep us posted on your website.

sakiZ

sakiZ;

I have installed the Knoppix Live CD onto a DVD/RW (4x) using k3b to install to DVD from the Knoppix LiveCD.iso. This utilizes growisofs automatically in the DVD .iso option.

This installs the 600MB+ onto the DVD media.

You could then run the DVD media in the new computer and utilize the compressed version of Knoppix Live CD. It may in fact run a bit faster. It does not utilize the full media capability of 4.4GB but does permit boot and run of Knoppix Live CD on a DVD media.

The decompressed version may be what you seek, however. The previous posting describing how this might be done should be examined.

I don't think that it is the ISO file that has the 2 gig limit. I think it is the compressed /KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file that has to be under two gigs. The KNOPPIX 3.5 DVD has a lot more than 2 gigs on it but the actual KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file is under 2 gig. I was wondering if you could create a remaster under the two gig limit. Then create symbolic links to uncompressed space outside of the compressed KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file. Lets say instead of instead of two directories boot and KNOPPIX there are 3, boot, KNOPPIX and themes. Lets say I want to link to have a hundred skins to choose from for xmms. Could I put the skin files in the new uncompressed directory themes? /themes/xmms? Then create a symbolic link from inside the compressed at /etc/skel/.xmms to outside the compressed at mnt/cdrom/themes/xmms? I guess from console you would need to
#cd etc/skel/.xmms/skins
and type
# ln -s /mnt/cdrom/themes/xmms/* .
The cd would already be mounted. Would this work?
If it did work would the link still be valid when when /etc/skel is copied to /home/knoppix?
Would there be a permission problem?
If this were to work maybe even Klik applications could be added from a directory inside the ISO but outside of the compressed Knoppix file.
If it did work the resulting live DVD would not be a good candidate for a hard drive install.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nvgringo

I think it is the compressed /KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file that has to be under two gigs.

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Correct. The iso is not limited to 2 gig. The DVD standard limits any one file on a data CD to 2 gigs in size. The compressed clopp file is, of course, the largest single file on a Knoppix DVD. A Knoppix DVD might well get around this by including a large compressed clopp image, and then including additional compressed applications in compressed cmg files like Probono is using in his "klik" software.

Harry;
I see you refer to the klik solution of Probono as using compressed files on both the knoppix cloop files and the cmg files.

When using the Knoppix format, the DVD is loaded using growisofs in k3b.

What format might be compatible to add cmg files after first running growisofs? What error messages might be encountered when trying to load...say..uncompressed data on the same DVD as Knoppix?

In fact, using k3b, what install instructions are appropriate for adding uncompressed data to a compressed formatted DVD? Or doesn't format mean anything to DVD?

When first running k3b DVD burns, the evidence of previously recorded data is acknowledged and a decision has to be made to overwrite if desired. What format information is inherent in the test thus performed by k3b? Does it regard new information as having to follow that format?

I see k3b as providing one format for .iso,..... via growisofs. What other compressed format is then possible? How does one do an uncompressed burn if the system recognizes the DVD as having a compression format?

I am not an expert on DVD burning and could use some insight!

I understand a bit about DVD burning, but am also not an expert. As far as compressed or uncompressed, I don't think the DVD really knows or cares. A data file is a data file. It's just the application(s) that you run that deal with the files (such as the clopp file) as compressed data and know to extract what they need from it. I know nothing at all of growisofs, whatever that is, and while I read the remastering forum I have yet to remaster anything (even a CD) so I don't want to pretend to be the expert here. But the file size of the clopp file is a DVD file restriction, and I would think that cmg files would be a good way around it (another might actually be to create a second compressed clopp file, but cmg files strike me as a better way to approach it). Perhaps Probono can give us his thoughts on all of this.

Hi all,

you can put the cmg files just anywhere on the DVD. I have successfully built a DVD with over 2GB of additional software this way, without remastering the 700 MB cloop knoppix file.

The only thing is that you need cmg support on your DVD, I have done this by a persistent home & knoppix.sh script that adds the neccessary fstab lines.

Greetings,
probono

just a thought, would not using mount bind ... on that second image on the dvd work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OErjan

just a thought, would not using mount bind ... on that second image on the dvd work?

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What for?

if you mount a second, third... imagefile on same cd as a part of the bootable one you get more space right?

Probono;

I note your cmg file post but am not sure what DVD software is employed to perform the added cmg uncompressed files to a knoppix compressed DVD burn.

I am under the impression that multi-session burns on DVD media (R/W) are not implemented in k3b.

Perhaps you can illustrate your burn sequence in more detail. I would enjoy trying the technique to enhance my DVD media utilization.

hi lilsirecho,

it's easier than you probably think. Just forget for a moment the fact that cmg files are compressed. You simply add them to the CD/DVD just like you would add any other file, e. g. a HTML page. Since you do not alter the 700 MB KNOPPIX file at all, it's quite easy. And you don't need multisession, too.

Here is the command that I'm using for Kanotix (I don't have the command handy for Knoppix, but I'm sure you'll find it on this forum):
mkisofs -input-charset ISO-8859-15 -pad -l -r -J -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size4 -boot-info-table -b boot/grub/iso9660_stage1_5 -c boot/grub/boot.cat -hide-rr-moved -o ../../remaster.iso ../

Greetings,
probono

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OErjan

if you mount a second, third... imagefile on same cd as a part of the bootable one you get more space right?

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Sure, but would you really want more "monolithic" 700 MB files? Personally, I prefer it more "modular", that's why I pack each application into one cmg file. It's more flexible that way. (You can find more info on it on http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15701)

But of course, what you describe should also be an option.

Greetings,
probono

References are made to increase the utilization of "CD" space.

As I understand the CD for Knoppix, it utilizes almost all of the CD (680MB) .

If one is referring to DVD media, much space is left after loading Knoppix to DVD and cmg files might be a fruitful use of the open space.

Since cmg stands for compressed image files, please advise how to intermix them with KnoppixLive CD files on the same DVD using k3b as the burn program....

Probono;

Your previous post lists the mkisofs command parameters which are not too far different than those used for Knoppix. This prepares the remaster data for an .iso burn.

When burning this .iso with k3b, the only option is .iso9660 image.

How am I to add the .cmg files(compressed in another format) to a DVD already loaded with Knoppix via .iso9660?

Since you describe forming an .iso file, it cannot be loaded as a data burn.

K3b also requires growisofs to burn .iso9660 DVD's.

What DVD burn software/hardware do you utilize? Do you burn 9660 format?

I do not wish to belabor this post but the information I have does not permit my use of the method on my machine without specifics describing how to add .cmg files to an existing Knoppix Live DVD.

lilsirecho
I use a payware ($30.00) Windows application called MagicISO you can add or edit files inside an ISO image then burn it to dvd. Kind of cheating I guess. But it works very well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilsirecho

How am I to add the .cmg files(compressed in another format) to a DVD already loaded with Knoppix via .iso9660?

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Just put them on the CD in addition to the KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file.

E. g my directory structure is as follows (again, I have used Kanotix for my "reburn", but it's similar with Knoppix):

./boot
./boot/grub
./boot/grub/menu.lst
./boot/grub/kanotix.xpm.gz
./boot/grub/iso9660_stage1_5
./boot/grub/message
./boot/grub/stage2
./boot/grub/boot.cat
./boot/grub/extra_d.lst
./boot/grub/extra_e.lst
./boot/memtest.bin
./boot/miniroot.gz
./boot/vmlinuz
./boot/help.txt
(...)
./free
./free/kdetv-0.8rc1.cmg
./free/kvirc-2.1.3.cmg
./free/nvu-0.41.cmg
(...)
./KNOPPIX
./KNOPPIX/knoppix.sh
./KNOPPIX/background.jpg
./KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX
(...)
./non-free/ie6.NONFREE.cmg
./non-free/winrar_3.42.cmg
./non-free/office_xp.cmg
./non-free/realplayer8.cmg
(...)

After using the above command for creating the ISO, I used k3b to burn it.

Greetings,
probono

Probono;

Thanks for the details you provided.

I now understand the misunderstanding regarding my interest in the use of DVD unused burn space.

Your system involves burning a remastered CD to a DVD disc and I just wanted to add to an existing disc. The process you describe accomplishes that but not by adding to the existing burn...

K3b doesn't permit that..only overwriting...therefore your method requires an overwrite to accomplish adding the .cmg files or whatever is compatible with the k3b burn. It amounts to a remaster and overwrite burn on my existing DVD+R/W media disc.

I am new to DVD burning (like millions of others) but am learning fast.

Would be interested in a DVD having a menu of LIVE CD's to boot from with at least a dozen Live CD's included on the DVD.

Happy New Year!!! and thanks!

By "remastering" in the Knoppix context many people mean remastering the 700 MB KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX cloop file. My method does not need to "remaster" this. Instead, I create a wholly new ISO (using the original KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX file.) That's why I would say my method requires no "Knoppix remastering". It does need building and burning a new ISO, however.

Greetings,
probono

Quote:

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Originally Posted by probono

....After using the above command for creating the ISO, I used k3b to burn it.

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Sorrry, but I've followed a lot of threads and links but I'm having trouble figuring out just what the above command for creating the ISO is. Please say, just what command do you need to issue to make a new iso, and where do you have to be when you issue it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ISoar

I've done this. To the nay sayers, it works fine.

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You didn't say if it's faster or (as suspected) slower. Give us real numbers please, including:

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I've not run any benchmarks against the official CD-ROM. My intent was not performance, but rather ease of customization (much easier to add stuff to the root if it is an uncompressed ISO on a DVD). I was not claiming it to be faster, just possible.

FWIW, I've started a web page HOWTO. It's incomplete (needs more info on busybox), but is mostly there. Not really that difficult to do.

Harry;

The above command refers to a previous post which has the data you refer to..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ISoar

I've done this. To the nay sayers, it works fine.

---

You didn't say if it's faster or (as suspected) slower. Give us real numbers please, including:
How long it takes to boot your Knopix CD.
How long it takes to boot your Knoppix DVD (on the same drive).
You CPU type and speed, memory, optical drive make and model.
What speed each the CD and DVD were burnt at (I ask this because a Knoppix CD burnt fast will often take much longer to boot than one burnt slow, due to a high number of retries required during boot).

In addition to booting speeds, you might benchmark the starting of some applications from the optical media, such as GIMP, and tell us how long each takes from first click until ready to run.

---

Okay, I went and burned the official CD-ROM ISO on the same DVD+RW disc. The speed results are not surprising: twice as fast booting when compressed. I've not tried your other tests; I'll leave that as an exercise fo the reader :)

My goal wasn't speed though.

I've scanned throgh so I don't know if its been explained or not, but did all you do is use a uncompressed image file?

Why are all Knoppix distros ISO9660? Isn't UDF better? There is no 2GB file size limit in UDF 2.01 (or ealier versions for that matter). If most systems can't boot off of UDF, then you can make a hybrid like DVD video discs, but unlike a DVD video disc, instead of the ISO and the UDF file systems containing references to the same files, the ISO would only reference the files necesary for booting and the rest of the files plus all the files referenced in the ISO system would be referenced in the UDF file system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firebyrd10

I've scanned throgh so I don't know if its been explained or not, but did all you do is use a uncompressed image file?

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Mostly. It also requires a "mount" that understands loop devices to mount the uncompressed image, and a linuxrc to do same. Check my HOWTO for specifics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by losmurfs

Why are all Knoppix distros ISO9660? Isn't UDF better? There is no 2GB file size limit in UDF 2.01 (or ealier versions for that matter). If most systems can't boot off of UDF, then you can make a hybrid like DVD video discs, but unlike a DVD video disc, instead of the ISO and the UDF file systems containing references to the same files, the ISO would only reference the files necesary for booting and the rest of the files plus all the files referenced in the ISO system would be referenced in the UDF file system.

---

UDF is really specifically for DVDs, and it has a <1 GB limit. From UDF v2.00 Draft page 7:
"Extent Length: Maximum Extent Length shall be 2^30 - Logical Block Size."
and from page 104:
"The data of each file shall be recorded as a single extent. Each File Entry shall be recorded using the ICB Strategy Type 4."

UDF is a specific implementation of ISO/IEC 13346 (I think ECMA 167 may be equivalent) by the OSTA. Basically, the standard doesn't have enough details for implementation, so one must fill in the blanks according to the spec, which is what the OSTA did to in their own way to get UDF.

I gave up on UDF when I ran head first into CSS years back when I started the (now defunct?) linux-udf project. Thankfully that whole mess has been resolved by others (in the courts). So feel free to correct me if my info is dated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by losmurfs

Why are all Knoppix distros ISO9660? Isn't UDF better? There is no 2GB file size limit in UDF 2.01 (or ealier versions for that matter). If most systems can't boot off of UDF, then you can make a hybrid like DVD video discs, but unlike a DVD video disc, instead of the ISO and the UDF file systems containing references to the same files, the ISO would only reference the files necesary for booting and the rest of the files plus all the files referenced in the ISO system would be referenced in the UDF file system.

---

UDF is really specifically for DVDs, and it has a <1 GB limit. From UDF v2.00 Draft page 7:
"Extent Length: Maximum Extent Length shall be 2^30 - Logical Block Size."
and from page 104:
"The data of each file shall be recorded as a single extent. Each File Entry shall be recorded using the ICB Strategy Type 4."

UDF is a specific implementation of ISO/IEC 13346 (I think ECMA 167 may be equivalent) by the OSTA. Basically, the standard doesn't have enough details for implementation, so one must fill in the blanks appropriately, which is what the OSTA did in their own way to get UDF.

I gave up on UDF when I ran head first into CSS years back when I started the (now defunct?) linux-udf project. Thankfully that whole mess has been resolved by others (in the courts). So feel free to correct me if my info is dated.