MOVE!

Printable View

10-10-2004, 11:37 AM
RoyalMail

Knoppix -> Debian -> MOVE!

So after I've isntalled knoppix to HD, and looked around a bit, I see that the standard (stable) Debian version is Woody (3.something - now a year old) and the upcoming version is Sarge (AKA 'unstable') and there's a further version in the pipeline called Sid.

My LILO boot screen screams 'Sid' at me so I suppose a lot of the packages are from the development stream of Debian, rather than the stable stream.

If I want to move to a particular release of Debian (for stability reasons), which apt-get commands do I issue? And do I have to make changes in the apt/sources.list file to ensure I don't upgrade to something more bleeding edge? I don't like the idea of just running apt-get update and then apt-get upgrade; who knows what I'll be left with.

Regds, RM
10-10-2004, 04:53 PM
Markus

Re: Knoppix -> Debian -> MOVE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalMail

So after I've isntalled knoppix to HD, and looked around a bit, I see that the standard (stable) Debian version is Woody (3.something - now a year old) and the upcoming version is Sarge (AKA 'unstable') and there's a further version in the pipeline called Sid.

My LILO boot screen screams 'Sid' at me so I suppose a lot of the packages are from the development stream of Debian, rather than the stable stream.

Haven't checked but could be that just lilo and some other packages are from Sid aka unstable. Sarge is testing soon to be next stable. http://www.nl.debian.org/releases/

Quote:

If I want to move to a particular release of Debian (for stability reasons), which apt-get commands do I issue? And do I have to make changes in the apt/sources.list file to ensure I don't upgrade to something more bleeding edge? I don't like the idea of just running apt-get update and then apt-get upgrade; who knows what I'll be left with.

What's wrong with bleeding edge? I'm running kanotix BH5 based on Sid without any trouble.
<asbestos suit> If you run a production server that's another story while you shouldn't be running Knoppix anyway </asbestos suit>.
Besides, as stated here...: http://www.nl.debian.org/releases/testing/ ..testing isn't getting any security updates for now. And if you're considering downgrading to stable (Woody) you might as well install Debian directly.
10-10-2004, 06:04 PM
Cuddles

First of all, Markus, (giggle) not taking any chances huh? ( asbestos suit, lol )

Ok, RoyalMail,

Knoppix is based ( loosely ) on the unstable, Sid, Debian release - it is more likely, a hodge-podge, or combination of Sid, Sarge, and Woody, releases of Debian... Kind of like taking the best of all of them, and putting them together in a distrobution. Which isnt that all bad, it may not be a "pure" distrobution, like Woody, but it has its advantages.

Debian uses three "phases" of distrobution, as mentioned by Markus, and your research. When something is being developed, it goes in as "unstable", kind of like Beta in programming language, then it gets tested, checked for "security holes", problems with other parts of the "system", etc... Which then moves it into "testing", once it has been "pounded" and the life tested the heck out of, it makes it into the "stable" phase. Some programs never get past "unstable", either due to staffing, interest, time, you name it, so if you want that "neat-o" game, that someone turned in, and is at "unstable" phase, you may never see it go to either "testing" or "stable", it may though.

The problem with Knoppix, and this can be backed by a lot of people, is, that it is made up of "many" phases of the Debian processing structure; stable, testing, and unstable. This can get Knoppix into trouble. When you start upgrading "parts", they can get mixed up, thus the reason why a lot of people suggest you not run a "unstable" version on a "production" system, like a server. I, for one, have been running Knoppix fine, both the v3.3, and now, v3.4, with the experimental 2.6.6 kernel, without a single "real" problem. "Real" defined here as, the OS has been fine, just me doing something stupid, causing any problems. ( I'll explain that next )

Only time I have had problems with Knoppix, having it hard drive installed, and, being my "production" machine, is, when I do something stupid, like doing a "blanket" upgrade, or a dist-upgrade. I even accomplished messing up my system using something that should have prevented me from doing these things, but, it let me do something stupid. If you want to run Knoppix, great, just think of the consequences of doing something stupid...

You should never run a apt-get upgrade, or a apt-get dist-upgrade - rather, run a "packager" program, like Synaptic, and never, I repeat, never, run a upgrade all - i've done it, all three of these things, and it isnt pretty. Other than doing the "stupid" things mentioned above, I have not had any problems running Knoppix. In fact, Knoppix has been far more stable, even being called "unstable", than any other OS I have ever run. The only time Knoppix has had problems, is because I did something, and instead of Knoppix saying something like: "I wont do this", it did it cause I told it to. Even "synaptic", let me do it, even though it did warn me ahead of time that this wasnt a good idea, I still checked the box saying "do it anyway". So, knoppix is not at fault, nor is synaptic, for me doing what I should have known was a major boo-boo...
10-10-2004, 08:54 PM
firebyrd10

For the most part Cuddles is correct.

Though knoppix is based on unstable more then anything else.

Its percectly safe to run apt-get upgrade on Sarge or Woody, but with Sid, watch out. YOu'll end up with broken dependencies as some programs are updated but their libraries not. Its a mess.

If you plan on installing and upgrading your system then knoppix isn't a good chocies. But if you happy with knoppix's version of software and have no intent of upgrading intill the next version of knoppix comes out. Go ahead and install it.
10-10-2004, 10:59 PM
RoyalMail

Thanks for all that; I think I'll wait till the Sarge set of CDs comes out (how long can it be?) and consider changing to that - I'd have thought it was more likely to have the bugs ironed out than the Sid release. The only issue will be then if the update can be done without writing all over my current user files (all on one partition I'm afraid, but that was the result of Knoppix install defaults).

I'm not sure about Cuddles' remarks re packages - I thought apt-get was clever at resolving dependencies? Is Synaptic cleverer? i can't see it on here anyway. If I get apt-get to upgrade/downgrade to a defined release level, all this dependency stuff should work out, no?

Another related issue if I may: I've now got a number of modules which Knoppix kindly installed for me but which I don't use, is it worth removing them? The deporphan program (and the Orphaning tool) show some packages that can be removed if not wanted and I've done some of that, but what about these Kernel Modules?

Regds, RM.
10-10-2004, 11:54 PM
firebyrd10

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalMail

Thanks for all that; I think I'll wait till the Sarge set of CDs comes out (how long can it be?) and consider changing to that - I'd have thought it was more likely to have the bugs ironed out than the Sid release. The only issue will be then if the update can be done without writing all over my current user files (all on one partition I'm afraid, but that was the result of Knoppix install defaults).

I'm not sure about Cuddles' remarks re packages - I thought apt-get was clever at resolving dependencies? Is Synaptic cleverer? i can't see it on here anyway. If I get apt-get to upgrade/downgrade to a defined release level, all this dependency stuff should work out, no?

Another related issue if I may: I've now got a number of modules which Knoppix kindly installed for me but which I don't use, is it worth removing them? The deporphan program (and the Orphaning tool) show some packages that can be removed if not wanted and I've done some of that, but what about these Kernel Modules?

Regds, RM.

Instead of waiting for the Sarge cds, (which contain alot of unused programs).
Why not do a netinstall? Just download mini.iso and boot to that.
http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/dist...mages/netboot/

Synaptic and basicly just a GUI for apt-get. Apt-get (or is it dpkg?) runs everything.
And Yes you could up/downgrade everything to a desired level but it would be more trouble then its worth.
I don't really see a point in removing the modules. Mine don't take out that much space.
You could always recompile your kernel and get what you want. (not as hard as it seems, http://www.desktop-linux.net/debkernel.htm)
10-11-2004, 02:55 AM
Cuddles

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalMail

Thanks for all that; I think I'll wait till the Sarge set of CDs comes out (how long can it be?) and consider changing to that - I'd have thought it was more likely to have the bugs ironed out than the Sid release. The only issue will be then if the update can be done without writing all over my current user files (all on one partition I'm afraid, but that was the result of Knoppix install defaults).

Chances are, you are going to have to re-install - from scratch - your complete install... If you have additional space, like another partition that is in ext2, or ext3, or reiser, you might be able to copy your /home structure files off the "main" partition, and after re-install, either set the /home to that partition, or copy those "/home" files back to the re-installed partition. My best guess on this one...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalMail

I'm not sure about Cuddles' remarks re packages - I thought apt-get was clever at resolving dependencies? Is Synaptic cleverer? i can't see it on here anyway. If I get apt-get to upgrade/downgrade to a defined release level, all this dependency stuff should work out, no?

apt-get is smart, but, its "smarts" are basically set up as, if a more "important" package is going to break a less important package, apt-get will go with the more important... Lets say you want to upgrade, and a printer driver and a KDE package are "dependancy" knocking heads, apt-get may opt for the KDE component to be installed, and let the printer part get broken. Thats the smarts... Synaptic is more GUI oriented, you can view, and select, packages, one at a time, so you can pick and choose what you want. Consider that apt-get has only one, a "blanket" upgrade, whereas, synaptic, can be selectively picked which packages are going to be upgraded, one, two, more, etc... It really is a "front-end" to apt, but has more functionality. Synaptic uses the apt-get update, upgrade, apt-cache search, apt-cache show, apt-cache policy, and even apt-get dist-upgrade, depending on which selections you choose, the nice thing is that, being a front-end, it can have more secure options, that tell you things like: "are you sure you want to completely upgrade everything? this could be disasterous? Do you want to continue?" -=- whereas, just plain apt, would say: "I am going to do this, continue?"

Not to mention, if you have looked at the output of apt-cache search, for anything to install, it is WAY nicer to see "catagories" within Synaptic, you want a game, look under the tab of Games, you want a utility, or a image editor, look under its catagory. It is good to know how to use apt, when you dont have the GUI option, but, nothing wrong with using a "front-end" that runs in a GUI, take for example K3b; it is a front-end to cdrecord, KFax is a front-end to faxgetty, or sendfax, recvfax, etc... Heck, I cant imagine editting a file with VI all the time, I like to use KWrite for a few of my editting needs, whereas, if you dont have a GUI desktop, you cant run KWrite, and VI works then...

I dont want to get into the whole: "GUI vs. Konsole ( CLI )" thing. I know how to do things in a CLI, and can also do them in a GUI, if they are available. The trick is, if we arent supposed to use a "front-end" or a GUI version, why do we even run a desktop manager? KDE is for GUI, not sure on this, but I think GNome is the same way - why would anyone want to have ten windows of Konsole running? ( and not something that is a GUI ) -=- I cant imagine reading the Knoppic forums in "text only", and not having the GUI to view with, or my email, for that matter - GUI is good, CLI is good. The trick here, is to use each one for its specific purpose, and needs - like a mechanic who has tons of tools, each tool has a specific purpose, the more tools you have, the more options one has to do what work they need to do. A GUI can be a "crutch", something that you use, and dont know what it does "behind the scenes", but if you do know what it does, and its a lot easier, or more functional, to use the GUI, then use it - its why the tool was made...

I used to do everything in apt-get, within a Konsole, but when I fired up synaptic, it has made me use it far more - its more "functional", not a "crutch" to me, yes, its "prettier", and a lot more "polished" than just apt, but, you make up your own mind, you try apt for a while, get used to it, and its quirks, and then try synaptic, and tell me, what YOU think... The Linux CLI is powerful, very powerful, and even Windows is loosing this power, getting more away from this kind of thing, moving more to the "point and click" workings - nothing wrong with that. As long as you know, you dont have to use the "point and click" way in Linux, you have choices, the CLI and the GUI.

I used to make those "front-end" programs in Windows, those GUI programs, and many people didnt have a clue that the "power" of those GUI programs came from API calls to the core of Windows, some of these GUI programs even used "DOS" commands, that were "shelled out" to, then "ported" into a text box that made them look pretty for the user. If you wanted to use the GUI program, nothing wrong with that, but, a lot of people didnt realize that if they ran the commands manually, they could get the same results, just not as "polished". apt is the same way, and so is synaptic, and any other "front-end".

I could probably point out many "front-end" programs that run in Linux, that have CLI "back-ends" to them, but it comes down to what you like, and if you dont have the GUI to run the GUI program in, you still have option to run the CLI "back-end" if you need to ( read this as more options to do something, is more power ) -=- If you have ever run a Windows OS, you know the value of the "Command Prompt Only" boot, especially when the "Windows GUI" gets hosed, and thats the only option you have. When this happens, you need to know what, and how to do something, without having the GUI. Same holds true to Linux.

Oh well,
10-11-2004, 03:37 AM
CrashedAgain

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:
'Apt-get upgrade' is not he only way to upgrade packages with apt-get. To upgrade individual packages you simply install specifying unstable: apt=get -t unstable install <package>. Apt with then install that package from unstable ("Sid") or, if it is a package that is already installed, will upgrade the package and all required dependencies to the newest version.
You can use this method to selectively upgrade whatever you want without messing your system up with a total 'upgrade'. And Cuddles is right, an 'upgrade' (especially a 'distribution upgrade') can REALLY make a mess of things.
Don't wait for 'Sid' to make it to stable...the name 'Sid' is always used for 'unstable' and will never become a Debian 'version'.
And, yes, Synaptic, Kpackage, apt-get and dselect all end up using dpkg to do the actual install. Synaptic & Kpackage are gui based package systems which have the big advantage of giving you a 'shopping list' to chose from, dselect is a text-based Debian standard package selection system (does the same thing but much less user friendly), apt-get & dpkg are package installer/maintainers which will do what you tell them to. Apt- is slightly more user friendly, gives more notice of what it's going to do & what it's doing.
10-11-2004, 03:41 AM
firebyrd10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashedAgain

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet:
'Apt-get upgrade' is not he only way to upgrade packages with apt-get. To upgrade individual packages you simply install specifying unstable: apt=get -t unstable install <package>. Apt with then install that package from unstable ("Sid") or, if it is a package that is already installed, will upgrade the package and all required dependencies to the newest version.
You can use this method to selectively upgrade whatever you want without messing your system up with a total 'upgrade'. And Cuddles is right, an 'upgrade' (especially a 'distribution upgrade') can REALLY make a mess of things.
Don't wait for 'Sid' to make it to stable...the name 'Sid' is always used for 'unstable' and will never become a Debian 'version'.
And, yes, Synaptic, Kpackage, apt-get and dselect all end up using dpkg to do the actual install. Synaptic & Kpackage are gui based package systems which have the big advantage of giving you a 'shopping list' to chose from, dselect is a text-based Debian standard package selection system (does the same thing but much less user friendly), apt-get & dpkg are package installer/maintainers which will do what you tell them to. Apt- is slightly more user friendly, gives more notice of what it's going to do & what it's doing.

I believe that dpkg only installs programs, apt-get does the downloading.
10-11-2004, 03:49 AM
Cuddles

You are right CrashedAgain, I didnt mention that "form" of apt-get, but, if you want to "upgrade" a few things, you need to put that "shiopping list" all on the command line, it is a lot easier with the GUI of synaptic, and it will do the "command line" for you, adding the "shopping list" onto it, "behind the scenes".

I did the apt-get thing, a few times having as many as ten, to fifteen, "upgrade" packages on the command line, and I can easily say, synaptic is a lot better, in that regard. If we want to get "down to missing information", no one has mentioned the -s command line option of apt-get... If you feel something is going to "possibly" be dissasterous, you provide the -s option on the apt-get install command line, and apt-get will do a "dry run" or a "simulated" install, and hopefully, tell you before you bugger your system with what you are attempting. If the "simulate" appears to go OK, then, just remove the "-s", and do the command again, doing it for real.

apt-get is, by far, the best way of getting packages, finding them, checking on new releases, searching for something, checking for dependancies, and even testing what they may break, but a front-end is not shabby either... :D
10-11-2004, 05:27 PM
CrashedAgain

Quote:

Originally Posted by firebyrd10

I believe that dpkg only installs programs, apt-get does the downloading.

Right. Forgot to note that distinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuddles

apt-get is, by far, the best way of getting packages, finding them, checking on new releases, searching for something, checking for dependencies, and even testing what they may break, but a front-end is not shabby either...

Not knocking front ends at all...I use one (Kpackage) a lot primarily as a package shopping guide.

But to get back to the original post,

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalMail

So after I've isntalled knoppix to HD, and looked around a bit, I see that the standard (stable) Debian version is Woody (3.something - now a year old) and the upcoming version is Sarge (AKA 'unstable') and there's a further version in the pipeline called Sid.

My LILO boot screen screams 'Sid' at me so I suppose a lot of the packages are from the development stream of Debian, rather than the stable stream.

If I want to move to a particular release of Debian (for stability reasons), which apt-get commands do I issue? And do I have to make changes in the apt/sources.list file to ensure I don't upgrade to something more bleeding edge? I don't like the idea of just running apt-get update and then apt-get upgrade; who knows what I'll be left with.

I think we've pretty well covered the subject. Upgrade individual packages to whatever you want, don't do a total upgrade and remember...if it works reliably for you, it is 'stable'. Don't get too hung up on trying to match a particular Debian version, it's YOUR system, not their's.