Put GRUB into CD-RW Knoppix ?

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09-18-2005, 08:16 PM
Robert A.

Put GRUB into CD-RW Knoppix ?

I am still using Knoppix 3.7 on Windows XP. I have no difficulty, either directly from the CD or from a "poor man's install" on my hard drive.

I use Knoppix to access the Konqueror browser, so that I can see what my own web pages look like in Konqueror. In many cases, problems exposed by Konqueror would also be in Mac Safari. This often requires me to switch back and forth between Windows and Knoppix, numerous times.

There is no technical difficulty: When I reboot, if the Knoppix CD is in the CD-ROM drive, I get Knoppix. If not, I get Windows. I have tried GRUB on floppy, so that I have a boot choice, but I am not satisfied, since my floppy drive is unreliable and I cannot easily replace it (laptop).

I do not want to alter the Windows boot record with GRUB, Lilo, or any other method. But I ask: Is it possible to alter the boot record on the Knoppix CD (3.7 or later), so that it starts with GRUB rather than directly to Knoppix ? That is, whenever the CD is inserted, I want it to offer me the choice of (a) Boot to Knoppix, perhaps allowing me to enter cheat codes; or (b) ignore the Knoppix CD and go to Windows.

I can use a CD-RW if necessary. But I cannot write DVD.

I looked through the forum for likely topics, but didn't see this question posed. You should know that I can do many routine tasks such as use a hex editor (if given instructions), but I cannot program, and I do not understand Linux.
09-18-2005, 09:05 PM
ruymbeke

Re: Put GRUB into CD-RW Knoppix ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A.

I am still using Knoppix 3.7 on Windows XP. I have no difficulty, either directly from the CD or from a "poor man's install" on my hard drive.

I use Knoppix to access the Konqueror browser, so that I can see what my own web pages look like in Konqueror. In many cases, problems exposed by Konqueror would also be in Mac Safari. This often requires me to switch back and forth between Windows and Knoppix, numerous times.

There is no technical difficulty: When I reboot, if the Knoppix CD is in the CD-ROM drive, I get Knoppix. If not, I get Windows. I have tried GRUB on floppy, so that I have a boot choice, but I am not satisfied, since my floppy drive is unreliable and I cannot easily replace it (laptop).

I do not want to alter the Windows boot record with GRUB, Lilo, or any other method. But I ask: Is it possible to alter the boot record on the Knoppix CD (3.7 or later), so that it starts with GRUB rather than directly to Knoppix ? That is, whenever the CD is inserted, I want it to offer me the choice of (a) Boot to Knoppix, perhaps allowing me to enter cheat codes; or (b) ignore the Knoppix CD and go to Windows.

I can use a CD-RW if necessary. But I cannot write DVD.

I looked through the forum for likely topics, but didn't see this question posed. You should know that I can do many routine tasks such as use a hex editor (if given instructions), but I cannot program, and I do not understand Linux.

Did you really try the Knoppix Windows PMI ?
cf: http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...=asc&start=270
It uses the alternate boot option of the windows boot loader (ntldr) to start grub (grldr) and then boot knoppix... from the iso file. There is no hack to the mbr, only a couple of files for windows and an extra line in the boot.ini. Very clean, easy and fast to remove if required because of a corporate environment... Hope this helps. Let me know if this works for you. Best Regards, Gilles
09-18-2005, 09:13 PM
Robert A.

rumbeke wrote:

Quote:

Very clean, easy and fast to remove if required because of a corporate environment

I am not in a "corporate" environment, but other family members use this computer, and I cannot offer them any choice except directly to Windows, on a protected user account (not administrator). Since they are not knowledgeable, anything else is a risk. I hoped to put the dual-boot on the CD, so that when I take it out of the drive, it is not available.

Thanks, I will look at the method you suggesed. But it might not be what I intend - on second thought (if I understand your own forum post correctly) maybe it will work. I'll get back to you after trying (it won't be today).
09-18-2005, 11:33 PM
ruymbeke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A.

... Since they are not knowledgeable, anything else is a risk. I hoped to put the dual-boot on the CD, so that when I take it out of the drive, it is not available...

Just a couple of ideas: Grub allow you to use a password, the default boot (time out and enter key) can still be that it will boot windows from both bootloaders: xp and grub, so you will need to select knoppix on both bootloaders menus... You can also use a USB dongle instead of a floppy to only load knoppix when the USB dongle is connected... Cheers, Gilles
09-19-2005, 09:57 AM
CytoTech

is this really true that GRUB doesnot come with the knoppix livecd? i believe someone was able to do it because i saw grub in action inside a livecd with Schillix 0.1 http://schillix.berlios.de/index.php?id=downloads, etc.
or, in case that's hard to do, ruymbeke's first reply to this post is quite right about the windows PMI, it did not write to my corporate PC's MBR, just a couple of files added and a new line in the boot.ini, add a bunch of cheatcodes and knoppix should be good to go. *peace*
09-19-2005, 03:41 PM
Robert A.

Thanks, ruymbeke. Although your solution wasn't what I originally had in mind, it works... almost. Being able to dual-boot to a HD iso image - easily updated, no CD required - without any change to the Windows MBR, in a way that I can easily edit myself from within Windows, is a big plus. :D

Using a password with grub will solve the granny problem. I'm not worried about hackers, rather I'm worried about the computer-illiterate getting into something they can't handle. (Do you think they would notice if it booted to Linux instead of Windows? No!)

While I was at it, I upgraded to Knoppix 3.8.2. Since I don't need all the capabilities, I didn't want to fool with some of the things that seem to have popped up in 3.9 and later.

One problem, and it is significant: (1) Old method, prior to using Grub from HD: Using a CD (even wtih poor man's install), when I reboot from Knoppix all is OK. After termination, I get the message from Knoppix to remove the CD, then hit ENTER. If I hit enter, the computer re-boots. It re-boots to Windows if I did remove the CD, or re-boots to Knoppix if I left the CD in. No problem. (2) But new method, using Grub boot from HD and Knoppix iso from HD, as described above: When I reboot from Knoppix, it hangs at the end of termination, just before the line that asks me to remove the CD. At this point, even with patience, nothing happens. Hitting ENTER does nothing except feed a line. If I use CTRL+ALT+DEL, then Knoppix responds with a few lines that seems to indicate it is trying to do something, but fails. The only way to re-boot is to manually turn the power off and on! This is not an improvement. :cry:

Is this fixable, via cheat code or (if necessary and understandable) by edits, including hexedit to iso file?
09-19-2005, 10:08 PM
ruymbeke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A.

...When I reboot from Knoppix, it hangs at the end of termination, just before the line that asks me to remove the CD...

This is a know problem that I hope will be fixed soon. There is a patch for it but not yet released: http://lists.debian.org/debian-knopp.../msg00019.html
Best Regards, Gilles
09-20-2005, 12:28 AM
Robert A.

Thanks. I'll have a look. The nice part about your boot method is that I can easily go back to "the usual way" at any time, with a simple text edit to an accessible file. :D

- Just had a look. Ouch! Is that C++, or Serbo-Croatian, or Planet X11 ? Think I'll wait until the patch is patched.
09-22-2005, 01:13 PM
Robert A.

Problem solved. :D It was a simple matter of going to the C:\BOOT\GRUB folder (installed as described above, in Windows), then editing menu.lst to remove "noprompt." I also added "config=scan home=scan" since I have a persistent Knoppix home in its own partition. Now, on my Windows XP machine with the Knoppix 3.8.2 iso file in C:\BOOT\Knoppix.382, and with password added to Grub, here is the behavior:

(1) On boot, I get a screen asking whether I want Windows XP or Knoppix Linux. If I do nothing, it boots to Windows in the usual fashion, after a few seconds.

(2) If I want Knoppix Linux, I get the Grub screen. I have it set so that it gives me 15 seconds to enter a password. If I do nothing, or forgot the password, then I can choose to go back to the first boot screen, and enter Windows. Either way, I need a password (I used different passwords for Windows and Linux), since my computer is not set up for a guest account.

(3) If I enter the Knoppix password, then Knoppix loads, finds my persistent info, and is ready to work the way I want it.

(4) When I want to switch to Windows, I tell Knoppix to restart. When it finishes, it asks me to remove the CD and hit ENTER. There's no CD in the drive, so I just hit enter, and I'm returned to the boot screen of step (1).

All this, from hard drive. No change to the MBR. No unpacking of the Knoppix iso file. Nothing on my C:\ drive that I can't manually edit with Notepad. Can be restored ordinary Windows boot at any time. Granny can't get to Knoppix (or Windows) by accident. Beautiful. :)
10-02-2005, 11:26 PM
Robert A.

Now that I downloaded 4.0.2 CD ...

4.0.2 works from CD-ROM. So I tried using the ISO from hard drive, the way I did for 3.8.2 above.

I copied the linux, memtest, and minirt.gz files from the CD, put them in a boot folder, and changed the grub menu.lst to point to the new files and new ISO. But upon boot, it really hated it. :( I did not see a minirt_ntsf.gz file on 4.0.2.

So I tried booting the 4.0.2 ISO from the files that I had been using for 3.8.2. I didn't expect this to work, and indeed the Linux loader complained mightily about some missing module. Nevertheless, when it had finished complaining, I eventually arrived at the Knoppix desktop (using my previously-saved 3.8.2 config) and was able to launch Firefox (off-line). I did not attempt anything else.

I assume that the boot files need to be specially arranged for 4.0.2. ?
10-02-2005, 11:33 PM
ruymbeke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A.

Now that I downloaded 4.0.2 CD ... I assume that the boot files need to be specially arranged for 4.0.2. ?

Yes, and btw knoppix 402 includes now the noprompt fix you have been asking for: http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...1796&start=276
Good luck and let me know if it is working for you.
Thanks, Gilles
10-03-2005, 01:06 AM
Robert A.

Thanks. I didn't see that other thread (rather, didn't know what to look for). I downloaded the zip, but don't have the chance to try it immediately... Based on your excellent work, I am confident that all will be OK. :D

Update: I'm using it right now. All is OK. :D
10-06-2005, 03:31 PM
Robert A.

This might be off-topic, but at least it's related:

I came across a Morphix Kiosk live CD that just runs Firefox - won't even allow a file save. Thought it might be useful. It runs OK from CD. So I thought I might put the *.iso on hard drive, and make it a boot option, the way that it was successfully done for Knoppix (as described above). Incidentally, I discovered Scribus on Knoppix, and it seems very useful.

Evidently, there is a trick involved in the 3 files that Grub must read before it can get into the *.iso. They cannot simply be extracted from the *.iso; I tried that, and I get a minimal Linux shell before it hates me and tells me to go away.

I don't expect anyone on this forum to do the work, but if there is some simple hack involved (some generic procedure that works), I'd appreciate knowing what to do, or at least a pointer. If it requires big-time knowledge, then no.
10-07-2005, 05:53 AM
ruymbeke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert A.

... I don't expect anyone on this forum to do the work, but if there is some simple hack involved (some generic procedure that works), I'd appreciate knowing what to do, or at least a pointer. If it requires big-time knowledge, then no.

You have to use the kernel extracted from the iso. About the ramdisk (initrd_ntfs.gz) you will need to customize the one you have on the cd (minirt.gz) and patch the linuxrc boot scrip with the changes from the official knoppix minirt.gz. Then you will need to add/updates the tools in /static, change/update the soft links to use busybox and not ash, and kernel modules in /modules of the ramdisk. Hope this will help. Good luck, Gilles
10-07-2005, 08:50 PM
Robert A.

Thanks. I'll try it. If successful, it is do to your excellent guidance; if not, it is because some people (such as myself) were not meant to fool with computers.