win partition issue

Printable View

10-14-2005, 01:07 AM
JBN

win partition issue

Hey all :D

I am fairly new to knoppix and so far I am impressed with speed end everything.

To get right to the point - there is a defect disk drive in my computer, BIOS can detect it only as single master drive.
So, I cant really copy files to another drive even if I could access win partition.

My question is what must I do to be able to access win partition (I need about 400+MB of photoson it).
Error says - could not enter folder mnt/hd1

If I access win partition then I could upload it all to FTP server or something...
Or burn it to CD...

Please, help me.

Edited
I changed read/write permissions, I can access hdd now but nothing seems to be there.
Strange.
In winternals disk commander all of 19GB can be seen there...
hmm.
Any ideas?
10-14-2005, 01:25 AM
Harry Kuhman

As you say, you can transfer files to another computer bt FTP; I like to set up an FTP server on another system on my local network and use the Knoquror window that opens when Knoppix starts as an FTP client. There are other ways to transfer files across the local network too.

Other options include saving to a USB flash device (or any UBS removable disk), replacing that dead hard drive with a hard drive with a FAT partition on it, and burning a CD. To burn the CD you'll either need multiple optical drives or enough memory to load Knoppix to ram (with the toram cheat code). As an alternative if you only have one drive you can download and burn a copy of Knoppix STD, a small (50 meg) distro based on Knoppix. Write it as the first session of a multi-session CD and leave the disk open for additional writes. Then you can boot this CD and use it and the writing tool included to write files to the remaining 650 megs (I have done this and it works well).
.
10-14-2005, 01:37 AM
JBN

Harry Kuhman,

tnx for your input.

But for now, I cant even access the NTFS files.
I looked around a little and found in /mnt/hd1 that it is locked.

I guess thats why I cant even see files although properties of hd1 say there is over 10GB of data present.

Any suggestions on how to access NTFS files, pls?

:oops: :oops:
10-14-2005, 02:14 AM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBN

But for now, I cant even access the NTFS files.
I looked around a little and found in /mnt/hd1 that it is locked.

I guess thats why I cant even see files although properties of hd1 say there is over 10GB of data present.

I'm not at all clear on what you mean by the partition being locked. You will not be able to write to an NTFS partiton (even to delete files), but in general you can read file fine. It sounds like you may have more than one system there (both the talk about FTP transfer as well as perhaps another system that you actually burnt the Knoppix CD on). If so you may wish to boot Knoppix there and see how it behaves on a known good system.

While Knoppix can often open a partition and access files when the all too frequent problem of XP refusing to even boot happens, it can't read data that is no longer there and certainly can't always access every partition no matter how corrupted it is. So it could be that you have the partition so mucked up that Knoppix can't open it. There is a tool that may be able to repair the partition table if that is what has been damaged, but if the file system in the partition itself is scrambled it may be harder to recover the files (although there are some other Linux based live CDs like Helix that might give it a good effort). For now it would be wise to try to determine as much as one can about what happened to the disk. Do you have any insight on the cause of the problem?
10-14-2005, 08:43 AM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

I'm not at all clear on what you mean by the partition being locked. You will not be able to write to an NTFS partiton (even to delete files), but in general you can read file fine. It sounds like you may have more than one system there (both the talk about FTP transfer as well as perhaps another system that you actually burnt the Knoppix CD on). If so you may wish to boot Knoppix there and see how it behaves on a known good system.

It is locked, /root/mnt/hd1/ is locked, or so it is displayed...

Well no, I thouhgt I can burn CD under knoppix...

FTP I had in mind is one of servers on the web, not in my local network.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

While Knoppix can often open a partition and access files when the all too frequent problem of XP refusing to even boot happens, it can't read data that is no longer there and certainly can't always access every partition no matter how corrupted it is. So it could be that you have the partition so mucked up that Knoppix can't open it. There is a tool that may be able to repair the partition table if that is what has been damaged, but if the file system in the partition itself is scrambled it may be harder to recover the files (although there are some other Linux based live CDs like Helix that might give it a good effort). For now it would be wise to try to determine as much as one can about what happened to the disk. Do you have any insight on the cause of the problem?

Well, partition table is ok now, knoppix itself shows partition info correctly. Partition table was corrupted, I fixed that.

I guess this is one of those sutuations then, where knoppix can not read win$it partition.

Helix?
I will give it a try, thank you!
10-14-2005, 09:33 AM
Harry Kuhman

I'm very confused by your going back and editing the first post; I have no idea when the timeline was or what the current nature of the problem is as you see it.

Knoppix can burn files to a CD. But there is an issue - Knoppix is on a CD and you need access to the CD when running Knoppix. So for a system with only one CD drive this presents a problem, although it is not a problem if you can boot from one drive and burn to a different one. Otherwise you can use the toram code to load Knoppix into memory if you have enough memory to hold all of the CD. Otherwise you can use the smaller Knoppix based Knoppix STD that I mentioned and still have 650 megs of the CD left to write to, or even use Knoppix STD and the toram code (since Knoppix STD needs far less RAM) and then put as many blank discs as you wish into the burner (one at a time, hopefully).

As I say. If the data is damaged too bad Knoppix may not be able to read the partition. But I really can follow what happened and what you have done to the system since in trying to recover. You seem to be acting quite swiftly in this, where I would prefer to look carefully and act with deliberation. However, as I said, there are other tools out there that may help if it is determined that Knoppix cannot read or repair the partition. Helix is a forensic Live CD with some recovery tools that may or may not help; whithout understanding what has happened to the disk I can't do much to guide you.
10-15-2005, 09:54 AM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

I'm very confused by your going back and editing the first post; I have no idea when the timeline was or what the current nature of the problem is as you see it.

Knoppix can burn files to a CD. But there is an issue - Knoppix is on a CD and you need access to the CD when running Knoppix. So for a system with only one CD drive this presents a problem, although it is not a problem if you can boot from one drive and burn to a different one. Otherwise you can use the toram code to load Knoppix into memory if you have enough memory to hold all of the CD. Otherwise you can use the smaller Knoppix based Knoppix STD that I mentioned and still have 650 megs of the CD left to write to, or even use Knoppix STD and the toram code (since Knoppix STD needs far less RAM) and then put as many blank discs as you wish into the burner (one at a time, hopefully).

As I say. If the data is damaged too bad Knoppix may not be able to read the partition. But I really can follow what happened and what you have done to the system since in trying to recover. You seem to be acting quite swiftly in this, where I would prefer to look carefully and act with deliberation. However, as I said, there are other tools out there that may help if it is determined that Knoppix cannot read or repair the partition. Helix is a forensic Live CD with some recovery tools that may or may not help; whithout understanding what has happened to the disk I can't do much to guide you.

Hey :)

thank you for your time.

Current situation is this:
disk is readable by sistem (BIOS) but does not boot up. And as luck would have it, it is detected by BIOS only as single/master drive, so I cannot copy files to another dirive.

As for the disk damage, partition table was corrupted, now it is fixed, even win$it CD install recognizes system present on C partition...

I dont understand why knoppix doesnt want to read files on the disk.

I am completely new to knoppix, so I discover things as I go. I guess thats why I appear to go too fast with this...

So, knoppx can burn by itself!
Thats a good thing. It is ok, I have DVD player pluged in as well as DVD&CD/R/W burner. And 1GB of RAM, so...
There are just some 4K MG of photos to burned, so I think this should be no problem...

I am running knoppix as we speak as drive wont boot. Tnx Open Soruce for knoppix!

But, as I say, files are not accessable...

What do you suggest, Harry Khuman?
10-15-2005, 10:46 AM
OErjan

hmm, sounds like a, not overly, remote posibility that it could be some issue with master/slave settings on there.
do you have the master on the end of the cable and slave on the second conector?
do you have the disks jumpered rigt? if i where you i would check a second time.
just a sugestion.
10-15-2005, 01:26 PM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by OErjan

hmm, sounds like a, not overly, remote posibility that it could be some issue with master/slave settings on there.
do you have the master on the end of the cable and slave on the second conector?
do you have the disks jumpered rigt? if i where you i would check a second time.
just a sugestion.

Hey,

yep, jumpers are set correctly, slave/master hdds both present.
Hmm.

tnx
10-15-2005, 04:48 PM
ckamin

Quote:

yep, jumpers are set correctly, slave/master hdds both present.
Hmm.

Just a quick note to add another two cents worth. Some systems are sensitive to drive jumper settings. There are many that will NOT accept anything but the "Cable Select" option and will work ONLY with compatable cables. The drives' position on the cable will determine the Master/Slave relationship. Don't know if it is pertinent, since it may appear that the system was working once in it's present configuration. There are also some drives that just do not play well with others. Most newer drives are OK, but some of the older stuff could act squirrely.

Was there anything that you did to cause he problem? Make changes in the system? Add software? Have you tried removing the drive and accessing it in another system? If you "repaired" the partition tables, was it done correctly? Could THAT be your present error in not seeing the files?

Another tool that may be useful is either Windows PE or BartPE. It is a Windows boot disk that allows full access to NTFS file systems. Windows PE is not usually obtainable by ordinary humans, but BartPE can be MADE by anyone with the knowledge and desire to do so. It works about the same. The BartPE is customizable and you can add numerous plug-ins to assist your recovery efforts. It does require the Windows install files to be available in order to create the disk, but it is pretty simple and straight forward. It's sort of a DOS for NTFS based systems. The Install FIles are probably on your broken disk and would be located in the i386 directory. If you have an actual Windows Install disk, you are in clover. You might have to slipstream the latest SP into it if it isn't current.

Good Luck!
10-15-2005, 09:07 PM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

Some systems are sensitive to drive jumper settings. There are many that will NOT accept anything but the "Cable Select" option

I know from previous posts that you're a big user of the CS option, but I have to take exception to this statement. I know of no system at all that needs to use CD and the drives cannot be jumper master and slave and work properly. And I know of no reason at all that this could be the case. The CS setting only changes the master/slave setting based on the cable and the drive position on same, and all drives have jumper positions that will force master or force slave. This really seems like F.U.D. to me, can you offer any logical reason why you think master/slave setting would not work and CS would be needed?

Actually, I would think that there might be a case where CS will not work and the jumpers would be needed, but not the other way around. I'm thinking of those pain-in-the-ass Western Digital drives that have a jumper setting for master drive in a master/slave pair and a different setting for master when there is only one drive. To my understanding there is no provision on CS cable systems to accomidate this (I could be wrong here since I have never found a good discussion of how and why WD treats these two conditions differently, although I know from experience that the drives do need to be jumpered differently for each case and if you remove the slave drive you need to rejumper the master).

Anyway, before people started reading you post and believing they needed to change their IDE cables out and rejumper all of their drives, I wanted to post that your view is not universally shared and is not born out by my experience.
10-15-2005, 09:41 PM
OErjan

i am STRONGLY against CS, it has been the source of VAST amount of troubles hat i have had to deal with.
and i have not EVER come across a setup where it has been REQUIRED, rather the opocite, where it has not worked at all.
especialy in XP and ME
10-15-2005, 10:23 PM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by OErjan

i am STRONGLY against CS, it has been the source of VAST amount of troubles hat i have had to deal with.
and i have not EVER come across a setup where it has been REQUIRED, rather the opocite, where it has not worked at all.
especialy in XP and ME

I agree woith you, at least to a point. I have never seen a case where it would be required and it can create a lot of problems, particularly if left in the hands of a non-technical user. However, there is no good technical reason why it would fail especialy in XP and ME. It's a very operating system independent thing; it just makes the drives master or slave based on the cable and not on the jumpers being in the master / slave positions. But users who are not aware of all the issues could cause unexpected problems if they ever have to change or move drives or replace a cable. If a user has the background to use it properly and wants to use cable select, that's fine. But I think advising other (potentially noob) users that they might need to switch to cable select is very ill advised.
10-15-2005, 10:41 PM
OErjan

I am well aware thet it should not matter, but it seems W2K and 98 work better with CS for some reason, atleast that has been my experience, no idea why.
10-15-2005, 10:58 PM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by OErjan

i am STRONGLY against CS, ....and i have not EVER come across a setup where it has been REQUIRED, rather the opocite, where it has not worked at all.
especialy in XP and ME

Quote:

Originally Posted by OErjan

I am well aware thet it should not matter, but it seems W2K and 98 work better with CS for some reason, atleast that has been my experience, no idea why.

I'm completely confused by these two posts. I know ckamin favors cable select, but in the first quote above you pretty emphatically say that you are against it and have never seen where it is needed, in the second you seem to say that it was needed in some case but you didn't determine why. I don't see how both of these can be accurate.

I do certainly understand that someone might deal with a particular case (particularly with the old style 40 wire CS IDE cables) where they could come across a situation that would be confusing and seem to need CS; and if CS were enabled it would take some care to switch things to master and slave jumpers properly. But getting in that situation and just leaving things as CS rather than resolving the problem and coming to an understanding of what the problem really was is far different than saying that only CS worked with that system. In fact, if the system had been jumper as master and slave and an inexperienced user tried to convert things to CS they would have at laset as many problems, likely more.

Perhaps adding to this confusion is that some old versions of Windows did seem to work with some improper drive configurations (two masters!) but Linux has always required these jumper settings to be correct.
10-16-2005, 11:11 AM
OErjan

what i meant was that 98and 2k work better with CS but that says little. actualy just that it has worked (sort of) 5 times total 2 in a Win98 and 3 in W2K system with very diferent hardware.
I have yet to find a XP or ME system where things do not get slow and/or complicated beyond my abiliy WITH CS...
10-17-2005, 09:36 AM
JBN

Hey guys :)

Guess what? IDE cable went south, I dont know why, I just replaced it with a new one and everything is ok now.
:D :D

Thank you all for the input :)
10-17-2005, 11:31 PM
ckamin

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Guess what? IDE cable went south, I dont know why, I just replaced it with a new one and everything is ok now.

JBN, Great job on the diagnosis AND thank you so much for posting back with your solution! :D
10-18-2005, 05:27 AM
ckamin

Quote:

Harry Kuhman Wrote:
"I know from previous posts that you're a big user of the CS option"

AND

Quote:

Harry Kuhman Also Wrote:
"I know ckamin favors cable select"

Exactly WHAT previous "posts" might you be referring to? AND Exactly HOW can you claim to "know" what any of my preferences are?

Your statements are untrue and obvious fabrications. There is ONE post in this forum where I made a reference to jumper settings and that is provided for you VERBATIM here: "Sometimes drives and systems have certain needs regarding jumper settings and cables. IE cable select/80 pin IDE cable supporting cable select option. Master or slave may make a difference when installed with other drives on the same controller or cable." I provided this for you, since I actually LOOKED at my previous posts to verify my information before I would insert my foot in my mouth.

In the post that "I" have referred to above, one of my suggestions actually appeared to have resolved the issues that the posters were having. I believe I have even seen you post the solution I suggested a few times since then.

By what stretch of your imagination does my above post, or any one of my other posts, make ANY reference to support your statements? If there is any data or link to support your assertions, I would certainly like to see it!

Once you have established your credibility in this matter, then we can look at mine. I might just have hardware in hand, so be prepared. We seem to have been here before in a recent post or two, so this is a little deja vu. I had the data to put forth then and will do so again, if I decide it necessary, or even worth the trouble. I did not make it an issue of it before, but it appears it has become one!
10-18-2005, 05:57 AM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

Your statements are untrue and obvious fabrications.

Chill dude!

There had been previous discussion about cable select a few months ago and I though I remembered it being you who made the posts that advocated CS then, as well as giving some good information about it. If I'm wrong it is far from the worst mistake I've ever made and there was certainly no offence intended by it.
10-18-2005, 08:46 AM
ckamin

Quote:

and there was certainly no offence intended by it.

No real offence taken either. I just like the challenge on occasion and am used to the confrontation. It's something about being born in NY and raised on strong coffee, along with frequent steroid injections. If you can't tell by my accent (can't seem to find a keyboard configured as NY), it's the attitude that really gives it away. I promise to drink decaf on occasion, although it's like having intercourse without a partner.

You were curious about the old WD drive issues, where they would not play nicely with other drives. Look at the following link for one explanation.: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/if/ide/conf.htm
WD is not the only culprit, just the most commonly encountered.

It reads: As long as one drive is jumpered as master and the other as slave, any two IDE/ATA/ATAPI devices should work together on a single channel. Unfortunately, some older hard disks will fail to work properly when they are placed on a channel with another manufacturer's disk. One of the reasons why drives don't always "play nicely together" has to do with the Drive Active / Signal Present (/DASP) signal. This is an IDE/ATA interface signal carried on pin #39, which is used for two functions: indicating that a drive is active (during operation), and also indicating that a slave drive is present on the channel (at startup). Some early drives don't handle this signal properly, a residue of poor adherence to ATA standards many years ago. If an older slave drive won't work with a newer master, see if your master drive has an "SP" (slave present) jumper, and if so, enable it. This may allow the slave drive to be detected.

A few good links for cabling and drive configuration info:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/if/ide/confCS-c.html

http://www.ata-atapi.com/

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/h...le-select.html

http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/ide-cable-select.html

Now about that FUD. I am not one to play the part of Chicken Little and knowingly spread it around. The sky is not falling, at least not yet. I have extensive experience with PCs and have observed many strange behaviors over the years, just like the weather, cars, wives, ex-wives, girlfriends, and children. They are all unpredictable, some require maintenance, and all do weird things on occasion. I have encountered a few Compaq DeskPro EN workstations, I believe the 6500 is one, that do not appear to work with an ATA drive attached with jumper settings other than cable select. Some Dells, Optiplex series with late P2 or early P3 cpu, had displayed the same preference as did one HP that I can recall. All issues were resolved simply by setting the drive to CS. Exactly why that was, I am at a loss, but I suspect it may be a cable or bios issue. These systems were all about 5 years old and were being re-purposed and distributed out to various locations. I still have one of the DeskPros here and intend to experiment with it when I get the chance. I am attempting to locate some of the others, so I might have some more data to work with. It might just be that these large OEMs are notorious for using proprietary hardware and who knows just what they can do to it. The issue is duplicatable on the units I have encountered.

Here is a link to an odd post in a forum. This is what sometimes happens when inexperienced people set out to build their own.: http://www.flexbeta.net/forums/lofiv...php/t6287.html It appears that they may have encountered some issue of a similar nature.

In any event, I apologise if my reaction appeared a little severe. It's just what I do and have done for many years when the need arises. I have seen many situations where a group of people run around peeing on each other's legs and forgetting what their original purpose was. It usually required some "counselling" and "direction", or some sort of wake-up call to get them focused on their objectives again.

The main thing is simply that the original poster resolved the issue. Possibly guided by some of the information posted here, or entirely by himself. It's fixed, it now works, and he has found happiness and joy!
10-20-2005, 07:51 PM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Guess what? IDE cable went south, I dont know why, I just replaced it with a new one and everything is ok now.

JBN, Great job on the diagnosis AND thank you so much for posting back with your solution! :D

Well, I couldnt have done it without help I got here :)

Knoppix project has win over yet another win$hit user. Me.
:)

I would have ditched win OS long time ago but I need certain programs (photoshop, flash, DWW etc...) that run only under win...

As for jumper & hdd configuration, all I can say is that with some hard drives only CS works, with others master/slave and with some (old matrox, for example), combination of both...

:P :D
10-20-2005, 07:58 PM
JBN

Tnx for the links!
:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

The main thing is simply that the original poster resolved the issue. Possibly guided by some of the information posted here, or entirely by himself. It's fixed, it now works, and he has found happiness and joy!

You can say that againi!

:)

With dead drive and IDE cable dying, knoppix and this forum saved me a lot of time and some bucks too.
:)
10-20-2005, 09:17 PM
ckamin

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Tnx for the links!

You are quite welcome!

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Well, I couldnt have done it without help I got here

It just might have taken you longer, but it is nice to have a group of people to bounce the problem off of. Sometimes we get reminded of what we have everlooked. Sometimes we get set on the right track by something that someone says. Something as simple a a drive cable can take hours to diagnose. I usually try to isolate the problem to the drive or to the system. That's why I hook the drive up to another system to eliminate many possibilities. If it is the system, it is usually a quick fix, once the drive has been eliminated from the list. I replace the cables on my bench regularly, since they are installed and removed many times and they eventually fail from the stress. They get cut up and dumped. I don't want them getting back into a system and causing problems like the one you encountered. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
You can say that againi!

The main thing is simply that the original poster resolved the issue. Possibly guided by some of the information posted here, or entirely by himself. It's fixed, it now works, and he has found happiness and joy! :)

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Knoppix project has win over yet another win$hit user. Me.

Welcome to the Club!

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
I would have ditched win OS long time ago but I need certain programs (photoshop, flash, DWW etc...) that run only under win...

I look for alternatives. Gimp has almost replaced Photosnot for me, but there are some legitimate uses for a Winblows machine. I keep a Mac handy too, just in case I feel the need.

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
As for jumper & hdd configuration, all I can say is that with some hard drives only CS works, with others master/slave and with some (old matrox, for example), combination of both...

We should leave THAT discussion alone for the time being. It appears the issue has stirred up some strong feelings in that regard. My experience tells me that ANYTHING is a possibility and to look for a solution to the problem. If you find a cure for cancer and it means eating bat poop to keep on living, even though you would prefer not to, what are the alternatives? Don't question the cure, just reap the benefits of finding a solution. :wink:

Again, I'm pleased that your concern was resolved. Hope you keep working with Knoppix and Linux in general. We can use all of the converts we can get!

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
10-20-2005, 09:41 PM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

It just might have taken you longer, but it is nice to have a group of people to bounce the problem off of. Sometimes we get reminded of what we have everlooked. Sometimes we get set on the right track by something that someone says. Something as simple a a drive cable can take hours to diagnose. I usually try to isolate the problem to the drive or to the system. That's why I hook the drive up to another system to eliminate many possibilities. If it is the system, it is usually a quick fix, once the drive has been eliminated from the list. I replace the cables on my bench regularly, since they are installed and removed many times and they eventually fail from the stress. They get cut up and dumped. I don't want them getting back into a system and causing problems like the one you encountered. Thanks for the positive feedback.

Yes.

Old cable is already in a trash outside.

Yes, I seem to stressed the cable quite a lot during last few days. All that pluging/unpluging was bad karma for it... LOL

Anyhow, in this case, a network would do the trick as well. I will build one ASAP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

The main thing is simply that the original poster resolved the issue. Possibly guided by some of the information posted here, or entirely by himself. It's fixed, it now works, and he has found happiness and joy! :)

LOL :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

I look for alternatives. Gimp has almost replaced Photosnot for me, but there are some legitimate uses for a Winblows machine. I keep a Mac handy too, just in case I feel the need.

I have heard of Gimp, yes.

Will look into it, no doubt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

We should leave THAT discussion alone for the time being. It appears the issue has stirred up some strong feelings in that regard. My experience tells me that ANYTHING is a possibility and to look for a solution to the problem. If you find a cure for cancer and it means eating bat poop to keep on living, even though you would prefer not to, what are the alternatives? Don't question the cure, just reap the benefits of finding a solution. :wink:

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

Again, I'm pleased that your concern was resolved. Hope you keep working with Knoppix and Linux in general. We can use all of the converts we can get!

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!

:)

Do converts get some special treatement, like few gallons of (non-alcho) beer?
LOL

cheers
10-20-2005, 10:32 PM
ckamin

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Do converts get some special treatement, like few gallons of (non-alcho) beer?

If you were closer (I'm in the Eastern US, at least for today, tomorrow is another question), I would probably buy you a beer at the local watering hole. High test or not (non-Alcohol), it's almost less expensive than gasoline these days. :)

Regards from accross the BIG bay!
10-20-2005, 10:34 PM
JBN

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckamin

Quote:

JBN Wrote:
Do converts get some special treatement, like few gallons of (non-alcho) beer?

If you were closer (I'm in the Eastern US, at least for today, tomorrow is another question), I would probably buy you a beer at the local watering hole. High test or not (non-Alcohol), it's almost less expensive than gasoline these days. :)

Regards from accross the BIG bay!

:D :D :D :D :D