GHOST PACKAGE? LINUX-KERNEL-HEADERS-KNOPPIX

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07-28-2006, 02:34 AM
chris_startx

GHOST PACKAGE? LINUX-KERNEL-HEADERS-KNOPPIX

have A BIG problem trying to install the NVIDIA chipset driver for audio and network on a laptop (Gateway MX3410). I installed Knoppix 5.0.1 on HDD and ran the NVIDIA installer, at the end of building the module it says that it encountered some error. Looking at the log, I can see there is some error during compilation. Digging a little deeper, I found a package in Knoppix DVD (linux-kernel-headers-knoppix) that has a lot of missing files and which is maintained by mr. Klaus Knopper but which is nowhere to be found on the net. I've been googling around for it and nada, niente, nope, nothing. So I'm just wondering, is this some bad joke or what? Is it Open Source or Open Curse?
Some time ago, I was able to find a website with a lot of kernel sources for all the knoppixes, but now I just can't find anything. So the knoppix-specific packages are to be TOP SECRET. At least that's what results.
Anybody has any answer about this? Anyone has any idea what should I do to find the kernel sources for knoppix kernels? Pay somebody to deliver them or what?
Maybe post a notice on the knoppix.org, knopper net and so on saying that knoppix is no longer open source and it has just closed. At least there won't be anyone else like me wasting a lot of time with this knoppix and finding a trap. :twisted:
07-28-2006, 08:18 AM
malaire

NOTE: This information is for Knoppix 4.0.2 CD as I don't have newer. Still I'd quess that it's pretty much the same for 5.0.1 also.

You can pay Klaus to send the sources to you by mail, as mentioned in KNOPPIX/index_en.html file:

Quote:

You may find the sources for the installed Debian packages on the various Debian mirrors.
Additionally, you can order the sources directly from Knopper.Net for the cost of material,
copying, packaging and postage.
This offer is valid for 3 years, counting from the build date of this CD-Rom/DVD.

Alternatively, you could get sources from http://www.kernel.org/ because according
to /usr/src/knoppix-kernel.README Knoppix uses vanilla kernel with only 2 exceptions:

Quote:

Q: Are there any special components/patches in the kernel used on KNOPPIX?
A: No. KNOPPIX uses the currentmost STABLE vanilla Linux kernel from
www.kernel.org, with 2 exceptions:
- Until the XFS filesystem is officially accepted in the stable kernel
releases, the xfs patch from www.xfs.org is added
- The boot commandline is extended to support 512 chars, the patch for
this can be found in /usr/src/knoppix-kernel.patch
07-29-2006, 02:23 PM
posmanet

Now, all kernel sources are freely available at www.kernel.org.

If its just the kernel headers for Knoppix 5.0.1 that You need, the easiest way to get them is:

apt-get update
apt-get install linux-headers-2.6.17-1

Greetings
07-31-2006, 04:31 AM
chris_Xnest

linux-kernel-headers-knoppix

OK, so posmanet says that linux-kernel-headers-knoppix package in knoppix dvd is THE SAME THING with linux-headers from debian ? I'm not clear, this is that you say? Am I wrong or linux-kernel-headers-knoppix is a MODIFIED version of linux-headers from debian ?
08-01-2006, 02:19 AM
posmanet

Well,

first, let me give You a quotation:

Quote:

Description: Kernel-headers includes the C header files for the Linux kernel. The header files define structures and constants that are needed for building most standard programs. The header files are also needed for rebuilding the kernel. (from rpm description)

Thus, i don't think the kernel-headers belong to the things that Mr.Knopper might have changed. It just would'nt be nescessary. Maybe he added some Kernel Modules or something, but the headers still are the same.

For exact answers, ask Mr.Knopper. :wink:
08-01-2006, 03:31 AM
chris_Xnest

linux-kernel-headers-knoppix

Thank you for replying posmanet. But see, if you boot the Knoppix DVD and open the KDE Package Manager, and you look at the linux-kernel-headers-knoppix package, you will also see a description for it: "Symlinks to unpackaged Kernel header files for KNOPPIX". So this is not about the HEADERS, it's about some SYMLINKS to them. As a matter of fact the size of this package is only 36000 bytes, so it could not possibly contain the headers. I'm not an expert C programmer, but I know what C headers are.
The thing is, if you again take a look at this package you will see two other things: "conflicts: linux-kernel-headers, replaces: linux-kernel-headers". So, since this is a replacement for linux-kernel-headers, it cannot be THE SAME THING. If it were, then there would be no need for linux-kernel-headers-knoppix, would it ?
And again, this package is nowhere to be found on the net, although it's just a bunch of symlinks. Why, I don't know, but one thing I know: if it's not there, it's CLOSED SOURCE.
The situation is the same for 4.0.2 DVD. And also I have to say I have been trying to find the kernel sources for 2.6.12 version 10.00 Custom (for 4.0.2 DVD) on the net, they are also nowhere to be found. And of course, you can see the maintainer for this package is also mr. Klaus Knopper... OK, you can say they are the same as the "official" version, but they are not. There are 2 exceptions at least. And anyway, I couldn't find even the "official" 2.6.12-10 (maybe there isn't one, and 10 is just an invention by mr. Knopper...)
Examining the missing files, I definitely can notice that a lot of them are supposed to be symlinks to headers to different architectures' headers, which don't exist in the kernel sources on the DVD either, for obvious reasons. But not all of the missing files are in this category. Again, I'm not an expert C programmer and I cannot say for sure if the missing files are the cause for failure at compilation of various programs, like ndiswrapper for instance.
One thing I can tell you though, I was doing a lot of surgery and remastering on Knoppix 3.6, and I was able to find at that time (one year ago) a site (developer.linuxtag.net) that had a lot of sources for knoppix custom kernels, including the two ones used in 3.6. I NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS compiling anything in 3.6 after I had those sources!! Good ol' times ...
08-01-2006, 09:12 AM
malaire

Re: linux-kernel-headers-knoppix

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris_Xnest

And again, this package is nowhere to be found on the net, although it's just a bunch of symlinks. Why, I don't know, but one thing I know: if it's not there, it's CLOSED SOURCE.
The situation is the same for 4.0.2 DVD. And also I have to say I have been trying to find the kernel sources for 2.6.12 version 10.00 Custom (for 4.0.2 DVD) on the net, they are also nowhere to be found. And of course, you can see the maintainer for this package is also mr. Klaus Knopper...

They are not closed source - they are open source, but you just can't download them for free.
You can order them from mr. Knopper for the cost of material, copying, packaging and postage.

Also, some knoppix-packages can be downloaded from http://debian-knoppix.alioth.debian.org/, but not all.
08-02-2006, 02:32 PM
pau1knopp

>They are not closed source - they are open source, but you just can't download them for free.
>You can order them from mr. Knopper for the cost of material, copying, packaging and postage.

I don't mean to be thick, or argumentative, but this statement makes no sense (to me anyways); either they are open source and the source code is provided for free, or they are not.

This is basically my only complaint with Knoppix since I can remaster any other items I don't like in or out of my "own" live CD, but it is a considerable one. When I need to add a package that is dependent upon the kernel sources, I always run into a road block. Right now, I would love to add truecrypt to my remaster, but cannot.

I have felt that this is a violation of the GPL in the past:

I brought this up as an issue a while back:

http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...ight=violation

Apparently, not just me, but others:

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4218186268.html

and

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS9113053102.html

I noticed that Kanotix offers the kernel packages right off their main page. Mephis is now doing this.

Knoppix *used* to do it, but does not (apparently) maintain the page:

http://debian-knoppix.alioth.debian.org/kernel/

The old saw about compiling your own from kernel.org doesn't really play out. Since the kernel has been modified, my perception is that the resulting modifications should be presented simply to ensure they are doing what they say they are doing simply from a security stance. We are talking about the kernel here.

I do not want to start any flame wars here... I respect Klaus and what he has done in the area of live CD's, but this appears to be a significant departure from what is required by the GPL.
08-02-2006, 03:32 PM
malaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

>They are not closed source - they are open source, but you just can't download them for free.
>You can order them from mr. Knopper for the cost of material, copying, packaging and postage.

I don't mean to be thick, or argumentative, but this statement makes no sense (to me anyways); either they are open source and the source code is provided for free, or they are not.

Open Source doesn't mean that source code is provided without any cost. There can be a reasonable cost.
You can read more about "free software" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software

A quote from that page:

Quote:

To help distinguish libre (freedom) software from gratis (zero price) software, Richard Stallman, founder of the free software movement, developed the following explanation: "Free software is a matter of liberty not price. To understand the concept, you should think of 'free' as in 'free speech', not as in 'free beer'". More specifically, free software means that computer users have the freedom to cooperate with whom they choose, and to control the software they use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

Apparently, not just me, but others:

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4218186268.html

and

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS9113053102.html

MEPIS is a different thing. MEPIS didn't offer full source-code at all, which is a GPL violation. Klaus has allways offered the source-code according to the GPL (see below).

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

I noticed that Kanotix offers the kernel packages right off their main page. Mephis is now doing this.

Knoppix *used* to do it, but does not (apparently) maintain the page:

http://debian-knoppix.alioth.debian.org/kernel/

....

I do not want to start any flame wars here... I respect Klaus and what he has done in the area of live CD's, but this appears to be a significant departure from what is required by the GPL.

If you read GPL carefully, you'll notice that it doesn't require Klaus to provide source-code free of charge.
Relevat section is 3b (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)

Quote:

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) ...
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) ...

Klaus is doing just that. Every Knoppix release includes a written offer, valid for three years, to give you the source-code, if you want it.

btw, I don't like this either, that I can't download the source code for free, but it's not required by GPL so I just need to get used to it.
08-02-2006, 03:35 PM
pau1knopp

malaire,

thanks for the clarification. seems reasonable...

can the kernel-source then be distributed for free once you purchase it?

if this is appropriate, does anyone in the group have these availble via bittorrent or direct download?

regards,

~pau1
08-02-2006, 03:56 PM
malaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

malaire,

thanks for the clarification. seems reasonable...

can the kernel-source then be distributed for free once you purchase it?

Yes, the "to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2" portion of the section 3b seems to say just that - the source code you purchase can then be distributed just as any other GPL:ed source-code

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

if this is appropriate, does anyone in the group have these availble via bittorrent or direct download?

I don't know of anyone who has made the full source available in Internet.