Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

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01-04-2010, 04:10 AM
Krellan2

Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

I've seen many places sell preinstalled USB thumb drives, containing a known-good copy of Knoppix, at a price that's a few dollars over the retail price of the equivalent blank.

The preinstalled USB drives, of course, would be installed correctly the first time, pre-tested to make sure they boot, checked all sectors to make sure they are free of errors, and so on.

My question is, if you've bought or made yourself a bootable USB thumb drive, how much (if anything) you would be willing to pay for this convenience?

I'm kind of kicking myself for not going into business a few years ago, when I first wrote the "Bootable USB Key" page, and had to field so many questions from people who really wanted a bootable Knoppix USB drive but couldn't quite figure out how to make it on their own. I should have started a little side business, selling preinstalled USB drives with Knoppix ready to go.

I attached a survey to this posting. Please fill it in. If you've ever considered paying for a known-good bootable USB key, vs. making it yourself, please fill in the amount of money you were willing to pay. This is a bottom-line comparison of final retail prices (so, tax and shipping should already be included in the price comparisons). Also, assume the shipping is fairly fast, equivalent at least to US first-class mail (around two-three days for a small item like a USB thumb drive).

Thanks!

Josh
01-04-2010, 05:21 AM
Harry Kuhman

I generally buy my flash devices on sale and at a much better price than "retail", so even if I were inclined to buy rather than build my own my answer would be "less than retail". But it is important to be able to build your own, otherwise you'll be buying a new flash drive every time a new version of Knoppix comes out.

I don't know how involved Knoppix is in this area, but Puppy linux has a great script on the CD that builds a bootable flash drive from one command (and works with much smaller flash drives than Knoppix). If building a Knoppix flash drive is not that simple, it should be, and someone should be able to provide us with such a script. This seems to me the best route; get whatever size and speed flash drive that you like as long as it is large enough, and you get to pick other features like extra small size or improved ruggedness, and build your own. Rebuild it when a new version of Knoppix is out.
01-04-2010, 06:25 AM
Krellan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

I generally buy my flash devices on sale and at a much better price than "retail", so even if I were inclined to buy rather than build my own my answer would be "less than retail". But it is important to be able to build your own, otherwise you'll be buying a new flash drive every time a new version of Knoppix comes out.

Very good point. When I said "retail" in the poll above, that's what I meant: the price one would actually pay when buying the flash drives, assuming one was a good shopper and got things on sale. I didn't mean "retail" as in "full retail price".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

I don't know how involved Knoppix is in this area, but Puppy linux has a great script on the CD that builds a bootable flash drive from one command (and works with much smaller flash drives than Knoppix). If building a Knoppix flash drive is not that simple, it should be, and someone should be able to provide us with such a script. This seems to me the best route; get whatever size and speed flash drive that you like as long as it is large enough, and you get to pick other features like extra small size or improved ruggedness, and build your own. Rebuild it when a new version of Knoppix is out.

You're right about that. The situation was different about 3 years ago, when I first wrote the page. Puppy Linux had just barely came out. These days, even Knoppix now has a script to make a flash drive bootable. I thought about writing such a script for Knoppix, but as of Knoppix 6, they beat me to it :)
01-04-2010, 12:42 PM
netzen

Re: Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

My question is, if you've bought or made yourself a bootable USB thumb drive, how much (if anything) you would be willing to pay for this convenience?
Josh

Interesting question.

Josh, I believe that some "price" should exist for the service.
How much it can be I cannot grasp, besides having some ideas about the subject.

Last year I had an idea based on my interest in "LiveCDs" and "LiveUSBs", here is the idea in full:
(I named it, the L2-BIOS [level 2 BIOS])
http://sites.google.com/site/l2bios/

Here a illustration:
https://4862920797741684118-a-180274...icro%20usb.jpg

I think there is market for it, if you can make a service package, other than just trying to sell the pre-installed USB.

Anyway, it is interesting to know the development of this topic.
Thanks for bringing it here.

Regards,
Valter
01-04-2010, 12:49 PM
netzen

Re: Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

I'm kind of kicking myself for not going into business a few years ago, when I first wrote the "Bootable USB Key" page, and had to field so many questions from people who really wanted a bootable Knoppix USB drive but couldn't quite figure out how to make it on their own. I should have started a little side business, selling preinstalled USB drives with Knoppix ready to go.

Josh

Think again and keep the thinking. It still a good time for this idea, at least in my oppinion.
Take a look of the graph evolution for the term "live usb" on Google Insights For Search:
http://www.google.com/insights/searc...e%20usb&cmpt=q

It's still growing and gaining momentum.

Valter
01-04-2010, 01:13 PM
Clinton

Interesting. I, of course, recommend people visit our own page to learn how to get Knoppix for free and then, if they prefer to buy, we recommend they use our preferred supplier. I earn a small commission when people make a purchase using that link.

I've just done a quick check of prices. New blanks seem to range in price from $10 to $17 for a quality 2 GB (excluding special offers, closing down sales and other exceptional opportunities). Our supplier is charging $15.95 for a USB with Knoppix. That's about $2.45 more than the average price I found for blanks.

However, it's important to take shipping cost into account and that's where the bought option looks more attractive - with our supplier the shipping is free to anywhere in the world. That may put it on price par with blanks bought elsewhere, maybe even cheaper in some cases (particularly if you're paying for shipping to somewhere outside of the US).

Summary: Base it on how long you estimate it will take you to create the USB yourself (add time for ordering if you don't already have a free flash drive). Bear in mind that not everybody seems to grasp md5 checks etc. I recently helped someone unfamiliar with all this. He spent more than a couple of hours reading our downloading FAQs, getting familiar what the whole bit torrent concept, setting up a torrent, learning about md5 checks, finding and installing an md5 check program ... and he still ended up with a non-working copy of Knoppix. It was a frustrating and stressful experience for him.

Some would benefit from going through the whole process and acquiring some new skills. That's particularly true of the regular poster here - the type of people who are likely to respond to this poll. S/he is tech savvy, has used some flavour of Linux before, likes to learn new things, has the patience to try various commands out to see what works.... Others may just want to get on with it - their goal may be just to recover data from their crashed PC and not to learn new stuff. If you're the latter you may not ever see this thread but you may be willing to pay $50 for a Knoppix boot CD at your local shop on a Sunday evening if it helps you recover that thesis you need to submit tomorrow.
01-05-2010, 08:23 AM
Krellan2

Re: Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

Quote:

Last year I had an idea based on my interest in "LiveCDs" and "LiveUSBs", here is the idea in full:
(I named it, the L2-BIOS [level 2 BIOS])
http://sites.google.com/site/l2bios/

Interesting idea about L2-BIOS.

I had a similar idea around 2005 or so, but never wrote it up online.

My idea was called "PreOS". It would be a tiny, self-contained operating system, whose sole purpose would be to boot another OS, from any and all possible sources. It would do these functions:

* Walk all of the various busses (PCI, USB, FireWire, etc.) and discover all attached devices
* Have drivers for several common SATA and SCSI controllers
* Discover all partitions on all attached drives
* Let user choose which partition to boot from, out of all of these
* Option to boot from Ethernet, via PXE, on any Ethernet interface
* Option to boot from USB CD (many BIOS's, to this day, still have trouble with external drives)
* Easy enough to add floppies or ZIP drives, if anyone still cares about them
* Small self-contained Linux installation, boot to a BusyBox shell prompt if nothing else works, for troubleshooting
* Save user's boot choices, and use them automatically next time

In other words, PreOS would be doing what the BIOS was supposed to do, except this time, get it right!

Interestingly, my motherboard has a small little bit of flash memory on it, that runs before the BIOS. It's called "Splashtop", and it's a form of Linux! Unfortunately, stupidly, it's completely locked down, making it useless. I'd love to install Knoppix, or something like that, to this special area of memory.
01-05-2010, 08:36 AM
Krellan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton

Interesting. I, of course, recommend people visit our own page to learn how to get Knoppix for free and then, if they prefer to buy, we recommend they use our preferred supplier. I earn a small commission when people make a purchase using that link.

I've just done a quick check of prices. New blanks seem to range in price from $10 to $17 for a quality 2 GB (excluding special offers, closing down sales and other exceptional opportunities). Our supplier is charging $15.95 for a USB with Knoppix. That's about $2.45 more than the average price I found for blanks.

Thanks, I saw your addition of the sponsored link to the page a while ago. I wouldn't want to intrude on your business, and realize it's what pays the bills and keeps this site online.

Those margins are rather tight, so there's not a lot of money to be made by selling USB keys preinstalled with Knoppix (or something else) on them.

Quote:

Summary: Base it on how long you estimate it will take you to create the USB yourself (add time for ordering if you don't already have a free flash drive). Bear in mind that not everybody seems to grasp md5 checks etc. I recently helped someone unfamiliar with all this. He spent more than a couple of hours reading our downloading FAQs, getting familiar what the whole bit torrent concept, setting up a torrent, learning about md5 checks, finding and installing an md5 check program ... and he still ended up with a non-working copy of Knoppix. It was a frustrating and stressful experience for him.

That's true, it can be an intimidating and time-consuming process to learn. I'm sure there are people who would want to just quickly buy their way out of the problem. I go to a mechanic to have my car repaired, for the same reason: I could, given time, do it myself, but there would be way too many false starts and mistakes made.

Quote:

Some would benefit from going through the whole process and acquiring some new skills. That's particularly true of the regular poster here - the type of people who are likely to respond to this poll. S/he is tech savvy, has used some flavour of Linux before, likes to learn new things, has the patience to try various commands out to see what works.... Others may just want to get on with it - their goal may be just to recover data from their crashed PC and not to learn new stuff. If you're the latter you may not ever see this thread but you may be willing to pay $50 for a Knoppix boot CD at your local shop on a Sunday evening if it helps you recover that thesis you need to submit tomorrow.

Very true, by the very fact that the reader has found this forum, they're interested in learning more. So, the poll here is probably not accurate, given the biased audience.

I'm thinking of starting a little side business that wouldn't require the sale of USB keys at all. Rather, it would be an *exchange* of USB keys.

The customer would mail me a USB key, along with a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope) and a small amount of money. I install Knoppix, and perhaps also PortableApps, make sure it boots, and that everything is correct, and mail them back the USB key. Quick turnaround, and they wouldn't have to pay the cost of a new USB key.

Would there be any interest in this?

Josh
01-05-2010, 09:50 AM
netzen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

I'm thinking of starting a little side business that wouldn't require the sale of USB keys at all. Rather, it would be an *exchange* of USB keys.

The customer would mail me a USB key, along with a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope) and a small amount of money. I install Knoppix, and perhaps also PortableApps, make sure it boots, and that everything is correct, and mail them back the USB key. Quick turnaround, and they wouldn't have to pay the cost of a new USB key.

Would there be any interest in this?
Josh

Josh, the "fill and refill" service seems more "attractive" than the selling of USBKeys, at least you don't compete in price with other shops, avoiding great part of the barriers... and creating something that don't exist yet...

Perhaps this is the direction to go...

Valter
01-05-2010, 10:26 AM
netzen

Re: Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

I had a similar idea around 2005 or so, but never wrote it up online.

My idea was called "PreOS". It would be a tiny, self-contained operating system, whose sole purpose would be to boot another OS, from any and all possible sources. It would do these functions:

In other words, PreOS would be doing what the BIOS was supposed to do, except this time, get it right!

Interestingly, my motherboard has a small little bit of flash memory on it, that runs before the BIOS. It's called "Splashtop", and it's a form of Linux! Unfortunately, stupidly, it's completely locked down, making it useless. I'd love to install Knoppix, or something like that, to this special area of memory.

Josh, the “PreOS” seems interesting (at least for somebody like me).

In fact, believe me or not, I have one “splash O.S.” prototype done!
It’s working.
Core only 6MB, boots up in 3 seconds (Celeron 3.3GHz).

My name: SubiTux = Subito Tux or Subito O.S.

The word "subito" means: suddenly; without or with few intermediaries.
It's goal is to be very, very simple and easy, and, of course, small.

Anybody (well, almost) can compile it from source (53 minutes to core).
This is the GUI One-Click-Compiler:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2703/...53a1dd71_o.jpg

You can read about here:
http://sites.google.com/site/subitux/

And this was the old, initial docs:
[Going Beyond The LiveUSB]
http://sites.google.com/site/networkbricks/

[The Original “first prototype”]
http://sites.google.com/site/netbrixlinux/

All source and scripts is open.

I have more few docs and 3 small videos to upload to YouTube, please just wait a few days (or hours) and I will be compiling all the info (more) into a cohesive and more easy to read documentation. These first pages just “happen” last 12 months and I was unable to make them “palatable” and easy.

The prototype was entirely based on the document “Slitaz From Scratch Book” with my ideas blended (the One-Click-Compiler, the network bricks, the Subito idea and others).

I hope to compile a decent set of pages with all infos easily readable in the next few days, and to make a more “de facto prototype” for the public soon. For now, all the stuff is there for download.

Valter

*Former name was Net-Brix, from network bricks, changed to avoid conflict.
01-05-2010, 08:52 PM
Harry Kuhman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton

... New blanks seem to range in price from $10 to $17 for a quality 2 GB (excluding special offers, closing down sales and other exceptional opportunities). ...

But why exclude "special" offers? Over the last two months I've seen many 4 gig flash drives in the $8-9 range (including Newegg with free shipping and off the shelf at Target). And quite frankly, I didn't consider those to be great deals. Last year I bought three very high speed 8 gig SDHC memory cards for $12 after a sizable rebate, shipping included. And that's not $12 each, that is $12 for all 3! Yes, as I said previously, I do shop for deals, but making comparisons against prices excluding sales. special offers and exceptional opportunities rather seems to bias the comparison in favor of someone wanting to charge the highest price the market will pay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

Rather, it would be an *exchange* of USB keys.

The customer would mail me a USB key, along with a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope) and a small amount of money. I install Knoppix, and perhaps also PortableApps, make sure it boots, and that everything is correct, and mail them back the USB key. Quick turnaround, and they wouldn't have to pay the cost of a new USB key.

Would there be any interest in this?

Josh

I would avoid the use of the term "exchange of USB keys", which seems to imply that one mightt get back someone else's key. But still, I question the value of this over just running a simple script that puts Knoppix onto a USB key. I'm not saying that there are not some people who might buy into it, but I question the starting of a business based on other people's gullibility or lack of knowing that they could run the same script that you run themselves.

For the vast majority of users, having a CD or DVD is still a good idea, as a much larger number of currently running systems can boot from a disc rather than a USB flash drive. While I'm no fan at all of buying commercially burned Linux discs (which I believe are always burnt at high speed), I have to think that it would be a lot cheaper to buy such a Knoppix disc and hope that at least one of my systems could read it and install the software on a usb device rather than pay shipping two directions on a securely packaged USB drive, plus whatever the service charged for running the script for me. At least that way I end up with both forms of media. And if I can download and burn the disc myself, I see no reason to use service at all.
01-05-2010, 09:29 PM
Clinton

Krellan2, that sounds like an excellent idea. But I'd put some more value add into it. What else could you do on the USB that would
a) help the user
b) save him time
c) make him more productive?

That makes you stand out from those just selling USBs with knoppix on them. It seems more personal. Perhaps you could even have a form on your site with various choices so they user can customise his order. It shouldn't be too difficult to demonstrate that you want to help people rather than prey on the gullible.

Harry, you've got a better nose at sniffing out deals than I have ;) I just don't have the patience. In any case, we don't get prices like that here in the UK. If you're paying $9 for something in the US we are paying £9 ($14) for it here.

But I think you're being a bit harsh if you think they are charging the highest price the market will pay. Bear in mind that these were people selling the CD for $1.95 - including postage - as recently as last year (now raised to $2.19). That fee pays also for providing customer services and a returns/replacement facility. It doesn't sound too shabby especially if you consider that it includes a commission for me. And their service must be at least reasonably good or we'd be hearing about it in the forums. I often ask people to post in public if they've had any problems with a disk bought from our vendors.

From my email discussions with the vendor I suspect they were/are making a loss on the disks and they only kick into profit when customers add on service packages to the order. So, all you've got to do is resist the urge to add a service package ;)
01-06-2010, 06:49 AM
netzen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Kuhman

For the vast majority of users, having a CD or DVD is still a good idea, as a much larger number of currently running systems can boot from a disc rather than a USB flash drive.

Harry is right, not all systems can boot from USB, but ALL can boot from CD/DVD... for old system only the LiveCD makes sense...

Anyway, I just like to put 2 tests here I did last year.
It's about boot time (speed) difference from CDs and USBs, I think this information should always be offered to potential buyers...

For Ubuntu:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3180/...f4cdc6d73f.jpg

For Fedora:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3257/...9868cfbce3.jpg

This may works as argument to use USBs instead of CDs.

Valter
01-06-2010, 10:54 AM
Krellan2

Quote:

I would avoid the use of the term "exchange of USB keys", which seems to imply that one mightt get back someone else's key. But still, I question the value of this over just running a simple script that puts Knoppix onto a USB key. I'm not saying that there are not some people who might buy into it, but I question the starting of a business based on other people's gullibility or lack of knowing that they could run the same script that you run themselves.

Good point, I'd call it a "USB drive preloading service" or something like that, not exchange.

I talked to others and they told me the same thing: there might have been a market for this back in 2005, but these days, it's just too easy for the average person to make a bootable USB drive, and attempting to start a business to do this is just taking advantage of people who don't Google first, as you said.

So, I'm giving up on this idea, as its market window has came and gone.

Should have thought of it back then!

Thanks for your advice.
01-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Krellan2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton

Krellan2, that sounds like an excellent idea. But I'd put some more value add into it. What else could you do on the USB that would
a) help the user
b) save him time
c) make him more productive?

Not too sure about that, unfortunately. I could have the USB key also give the user the choice of booting Mac OS or Windows XP, but there's all sorts of copyright/licensing problems there that I don't even want to go into. Besides, it's really the same as Knoppix, in that there's free images out there for anybody to use already, if they're interested in doing this. BartPE is an example.

I could throw PortableApps onto the USB key, as it's a good use of extra space, but again, that's just something that anybody can download and do themselves, with a few clicks.

I do like the idea of a "service package", though. I'd need to add some better kind of value-add.

Back to the drawing board!
01-06-2010, 06:48 PM
netzen

Re: Buying preinstalled bootable USB drive vs. making own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by netzen

Josh, the “PreOS” seems interesting (at least for somebody like me).

In fact, believe me or not, I have one “splash O.S.” prototype done!
It’s working.
Core only 6MB, boots up in 3 seconds (Celeron 3.3GHz).

My name: SubiTux = Subito Tux or Subito O.S.

You can read about here:
http://sites.google.com/site/subitux/

All source and scripts are open.

I have more few docs and 3 small videos to upload to YouTube, please just wait a few days (or hours) and I will be compiling all the info (more) into a cohesive and more easy to read documentation. These first pages just “happen” last 12 months and I was unable to make them “palatable” and easy.

I finally finish editing 3 small (very small) videos and uploaded them to YouTube:

[SubiTux booting]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg8hwKNoq8A

[SubiTux running Firefox]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFHvLQqJsc

[SubiTux running xGalaga]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ4xQGhVB14

I'm finishing compiling a PDF explaining the idea, need some more final touch and will be online...

Valter
01-08-2010, 06:09 PM
netzen

Asking for infos about the "Pre-OS" concept.

Hi Josh (and all people that the idea of LiveCD/USB may interest),

I like to ask you more information about your “PreOS” concept and I want to offer more details about my “subito OS concept” (the SubiTux).

Perhaps there are things we can share and collaborate with each other on the subject.

[The General Information Site]
http://sites.google.com/site/subitux/

[The “Subito Information Revolution Manifesto”]
http://sites.google.com/site/subitux/manifesto

If you have a link with any information about your “PreOS” that you feel safe to share with us, please post here so that we may start a kind of “dialog” around the subject matter.

My “SubiTux” project has part of its roots on Debian Project and Knoppix Project, so, it will be interesting to build here the “dialog”, because its implications can help inspire Knoppix users and developers.

Because my “SubiTux” Project is 70% about “information” and 30% about FOSS software, I am absolute sure that Knoppix people (users and developers) can benefit directly from that “70% informational” part and, at least indirectly from the SubiTux software itself.

I’m still working to make the documentation better, but right now those pages can communicate a fairly good idea about the project.

Thanks all,
Valter
01-09-2010, 11:09 PM
Krellan2

Re: Asking for infos about the "Pre-OS" concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by netzen

Hi Josh (and all people that the idea of LiveCD/USB may interest),

I like to ask you more information about your “PreOS” concept and I want to offer more details about my “subito OS concept” (the SubiTux).

Perhaps there are things we can share and collaborate with each other on the subject.

I actually don't have any more information. The links I give you below, are about all that was the extent of it.

It would be a combination of many different pieces of open source software.

Here's an early prototype I made, to boot from PXE and autodetect various Ethernet cards in computers (this was back before PXE became standard in almost all new Ethernet cards these days):

ftp://ftp.scyld.com/private/jlehan/pxe-on-a-disk.html

I made this back in 2005.

It's a compilation of all Etherboot drivers, all stuffed onto a floppy (or very small CD) image. Worked great.

Write this image to a floppy (or very small CD), put it in an old computer that doesn't have built-in PXE, and presto, as if by magic, that computer now has PXE!

Here's some additional tools that I looked at, but did not end up using:

Here's a boot image which has 2 key features, let you boot from any hard disk partition of your choice (not just the first partition), and boot from an IDE CD-ROM drive on very old computers that didn't have working CD-ROM booting already in their BIOS:

http://btmgr.sourceforge.net/about.html

As for compiling all these tools together into what might have became "PreOS", somebody already is working on a similar project, which combines many, many boot images for specialized tools or booting from alternative media that might not be supported by the BIOS:

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

And, somebody also has an adapter program that can convert many CD boot images to Live USB boot images instead, for booting from USB:

http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/

All of these should be good leads to follow up with, for your project.

A request: Can this thread be closed? Perhaps start another thread for your SubTux project, since it's something completely different from my original question.

Thanks!
01-10-2010, 12:12 AM
netzen

Re: Asking for infos about the "Pre-OS" concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

All of these should be good leads to follow up with, for your project.

A request: Can this thread be closed? Perhaps start another thread for your SubTux project, since it's something completely different from my original question.

Thanks for reply with all the information. The more we know, the greater the chance to avoid recreating something that already exist.

Sorry, I apologize for creating deviation from the subject on the topic. Let's keep the topic around the original subject.

Valter
01-10-2010, 05:59 PM
netzen

Re: Asking for infos about the "Pre-OS" concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krellan2

A request: Can this thread be closed? Perhaps start another thread for your SubTux project, since it's something completely different from my original question.

Hi, I started a new (continuation) topic to try to create the exchange there:
http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtop...=122061#122061

Thanks all,
Valter