should Debian *follow* Knoppix?

Hi,

I have to confess I am not a Debian user. I installed it twice during my training, but I really found it to be a pain. After trying plenty of other distros, I settled for Mandrake which I find top-notch. I recently added Knoppix to my favorite list. I am in awe of the beauty and richness of it. There is only one thing I simple don't understand. Can't Debian simply use Knoppix scripts instead of its rather inelegant installation scripts? Is there a reason for them NOT wanting to follow Knoppix?

Cheers,

Andrei

I agree that it would be a great thing if Debian followed Knoppix with regard to hardware detection and configuration, but I suspect it is not going to happen.

Knoppix uses Kudzu rather than Discover to detect hardware. Is Kudzu better than Discover? I'm not sure, but Klaus is certainly able to use Kudzu well to perform hardware detection.

As far as configuration goes, many Debian enthsiasts do not like the idea of hardware being auto configured. They would prefer the user configure it. My thinking is that auto configuration fails the user could always tweak it himself. Really and trully Debian should borrow from Klaus' work in this area.

One thing seems self evident: Knoppix's auto detection and configuration abilities have gotten a lot of people to look at Debian who otherwise would not have.

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Originally Posted by aay

One thing seems self evident: Knoppix's auto detection and configuration abilities have gotten a lot of people to look at Debian who otherwise would not have.

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and look at this the other way around - how much people did Debians install scripts turn AWAY from this otherwise fantastic distro?

Hate to rub my pro-Mandrake bias in, but look at the way they do it: three install procedures, ranging from automatic to expert in which you can configure pretty much anything you like.

Agreed. I myself moved from Mandrake to Debian, and Knoppix was a big help in my making the move.

Though Debian itself may not adopt the approach to detection and configuration that Knoppix uses, Knoppix itself will continue to improve and I suspect other Debian based distros will be modeled after Knoppix. There are already quite a few that have done this.

I was told once

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The debian installer is so bad you only need to use it once

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Meaning, that unlike windows, and in some cases redhat, your system never becomes unstable to the stage where it needs to be reinstalled. With debian, you can upgrade, downgrade whatever, and it will still work. I agree the debian installer needs a lot of work, but when you install knoppix, it really is debian.

The strength of debian is in it's packaging, both the way it works and the number of packages. So the simple answer is to use knoppix to install debian.

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Originally Posted by andrei

Hate to rub my pro-Mandrake bias in, but look at the way they do it: three install procedures, ranging from automatic to expert in which you can configure pretty much anything you like.

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MDK does have an awesome installation and some great hardware tools but that's where it ends. RPM's were always a pain but I never have problems with .debs. They just work.

My 5 cents on Debian-

There is no denying that Debian is an excellent distro. It runs on most any platform, it has a fantastic package system as well as an incredible wealth of software readily avalable. Documentation is also excellent. With that said...

Saying "pure Debian" is like "purebred"- nothing but a meaningless term. Afterall that 'purebred' dog may have existed in its present form for 1000 years but before that, it was something else. The strongest survive, the cream rises to the surface, etc.

Some Debian users and devs that I have spoken with consider Knoppix to be a bastard child, an affront. Whatever..........

But- what would Debian be without Linux? Linux is the kernel of course,- Debian would not exist without it (obviously). So...phooey on them and their attitude. :P

Have you ever looked through the descriptions of the packages installed with Knoppix that were created especially for Knoppix? There is alot of work there. I don't base this on any fact but I'd be willing to guess that few people have as many .debs accredited to them as Klaus does.

Knoppix is the culmination of everything that's great about Linux. Sure that's a subjective statement.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is....since Knoppix arrived, don't we already have Debian and an easy installation? ;)

Imagine where Knoppix will be 6 months from now!

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Originally Posted by rickenbacherus

Have you ever looked through the descriptions of the packages installed with Knoppix that were created especially for Knoppix?

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Don't tell me u need special packages for knoppix. Don't we have enough problem with redhat, mandrake, suse all using different rpms. specially made for them

I thought I could install debian packages on knoppix.

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Originally Posted by ziyad

I thought I could install debian packages on knoppix.

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You are correct- Knoppix is Debian. You can certainly install .debs from Debian.

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Originally Posted by rickenbacherus

Some Debian users and devs that I have spoken with consider Knoppix to be a bastard child, an affront. Whatever..........

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I thought about that when I wrote my first post but decided to avoid creating a trolling/flaming issue here :-) but seriously, I have encountered a lot of what I call Debian-machismo during my training: folks who feel pride in going through louzy install script because it makes them feel superior to those who could not. As for Knoppix being a "bastard child" they miss the very core of what makes GNU/Linux software so absolutely superior to any other soft out there: the freedom to "stand upon the shoulders of giants" and built better and highly adapted versions (look at the phenomenal Knoppix-STD http://www.knoppix-std.org/ distro). I think that this type of "macho" Linux users is going to fade away with time (they are also those who usually rudely answer newbie posts BTW).

Hopefully the right folks a Debian will consider these issues and continue their othersie fantastic job!

Hi aay, I come from China.
Some friends ask me to add the Knoppix's auto detection and configuration abilities to Debian's miniCD ISO.
What can I do?
I have to replace the bootfile with Knoppix's, am I right?
And then, what can I do?

The miniCD with Debian's base system, and we all like it---
http://people.debian.org/~blade/XFS-...h_basedebs.iso

I must say that since i came across knoppix i became a Debian user after many failed attempts to install debian now is there a definitive litterature on debian that i could use the ones i've seen at the bookstore are very general and not for the Newbie

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Originally Posted by hiweed

Hi aay, I come from China.
Some friends ask me to add the Knoppix's auto detection and configuration abilities to Debian's miniCD ISO.

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Hmm. Do they want this in order to make installing debian easier? Perhaps just showing them how to use the installer on knoppix would be a better route. There is a new installer on the new release and it has some significant improvements.

If you are looking for something that will fit on a small CD, then you ought to check out Bonzai Linux. Bonzai is debian based, on a small CD, and has been tweaked to make the install easier than Debian. It doesn't use the same hardware detection process that Knoppix does, but it's easier to use than a stock Debian.

Hope this helps

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Originally Posted by dougvega

I must say that since i came across knoppix i became a Debian user after many failed attempts to install debian now is there a definitive litterature on debian that i could use the ones i've seen at the bookstore are very general and not for the Newbie

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Probably the best thing to do is to download and print off some of the documentation here.

You can also look at http://www.aboutdebian.com for an overview.

I'm not sure about published material that is solely about Debian. There are some general books about Linux that would be applicable to Debian.

Rute: http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/index.html.gz (Also available in book form at Amazon)

The Linux Newbie Administrator Guide: http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/index.html.gz

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Originally Posted by rickenbacherus

Saying "pure Debian" is like "purebred"- nothing but a meaningless term. Afterall that 'purebred' dog may have existed in its present form for 1000 years but before that, it was something else. The strongest survive, the cream rises to the surface, etc.

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So right!

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Originally Posted by rickenbacherus

Some Debian users and devs that I have spoken with consider Knoppix to be a bastard child, an affront. Whatever..........

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Sad but true.

There is no doubt that people will take Debain and continue to streamline it and implement their own ideas. Sometimes I wish this process would go a little faster. I don't mind taking Knoppix, installing it, and using it as me defualt Desktop, but I've got some friends and family members who wouldn't be able to manage w/o an easier install and more configuration tools. I'd like to be able to give them something oneday. I'm sure it will happen it will be just a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by aay

If you are looking for something that will fit on a small CD, then you ought to check out Bonzai Linux. Bonzai is debian based, on a small CD, and has been tweaked to make the install easier than Debian. It doesn't use the same hardware detection process that Knoppix does, but it's easier to use than a stock Debian.

Hope this helps

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I'll second that recomendation Bonzai is a great way to get a small (about 150mb) base install of Debian, if you don't install KDE, on the HD you just have to know your hardware and select the proper options during the install.

This is my Project ... :-)

No, seriously I am working on that and the first step is to get almost all packages into debian.

Next step is to wake up and make udebs for the new debian-installer, to be able to use the still developed kudzu instead of the by progeny once developed discover. (It did not work for me on miniwoody).

I'll have an own Knoppix-Repository ready soon nad will also get this packages back to Klaus.

cu

Fabian

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Originally Posted by Fabianx

This is my Project ... :-)

No, seriously I am working on that and the first step is to get almost all packages into debian.

Next step is to wake up and make udebs for the new debian-installer, to be able to use the still developed kudzu instead of the by progeny once developed discover. (It did not work for me on miniwoody).

I'll have an own Knoppix-Repository ready soon nad will also get this packages back to Klaus.

cu

Fabian

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Woohoo! Sounds great.

BTW, I LOVE the new installer. I just gave it a trial run and am going to post some thoughts in the Lounge when I get a chance. The improvements in this installer are really nice!

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Originally Posted by aay

Hmm. Do they want this in order to make installing debian easier?

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Oh yes, it is so hard to install some hardwares via Debian. So we want to replace the bootfile of Debian's boot CD with Knoppix's. So, our small CD can install these hardwares easilly like Knoppix.

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Originally Posted by aay

If you are looking for something that will fit on a small CD, then you ought to check out Bonzai Linux. Bonzai is debian based, on a small CD, and has been tweaked to make the install easier than Debian. It doesn't use the same hardware detection process that Knoppix does, but it's easier to use than a stock Debian.

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Thank you so much!
I am downloading the bonzai_2_1.iso now. Then I'll work on it.
Thanks and regards!

Hiweed.

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Some Debian users and devs that I have spoken with consider Knoppix to be a bastard child, an affront.

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That's funny: I thought Debian was open-source and that the point of open source software was that anyone could change it to suit them. I'm still a Linux newbie; have I misunderstood the open source movement?

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Originally Posted by three eyes open

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Some Debian users and devs that I have spoken with consider Knoppix to be a bastard child, an affront.

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That's funny: I thought Debian was open-source and that the point of open source software was that anyone could change it to suit them. I'm still a Linux newbie; have I misunderstood the open source movement?

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Well you're right in theory, but I think that there are a lot of Debian users who think that the installer is no good unless it's a pain in the ass to use. I've never understood this personally. It would be nice if the new installer had used an auto detection / configuration process like Knoppix, but had an expert or manual option for people who want to do everything themselves.

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Originally Posted by three eyes open

That's funny: I thought Debian was open-source and that the point of open source software was that anyone could change it to suit them. I'm still a Linux newbie; have I misunderstood the open source movement?

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No you haven't misunderstood it at all. There is alot of competition between distros and even desktop environments. Personally I don't care- Knoppix throws an excellent distro on the hdd in no time flat and it works for me. I'm using it on a 233Mhz laptop that would have taken daaaaaays to bootsrap Debian on. Not to mention adding all the software I need. Instead, I just rebuild the kernel to suit my needs and remove the apps I don't want in one fell swoop- it's alot faster that way.