Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

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11-20-2003, 05:55 PM
paul_nl

Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

Today you released another version of your acclaimed Knoppix live cd, the third new release in just a few weeks (or maybe even 4, I'm loosing count).
I feel you're not really doing anyone a big service like this, least of all the universities that so kindly have offered to mirror the Knoppix iso's.

In my perception the current release speed will also do other damage: people might start wondering if there's maybe little attention for bugfixing before releases for one, and if this release flurry would be aimed at keeping Knoppix high on the news sections of the best visited Linux websites, and getting reviews all the time, I'm afraid that over time this will backfire as well.
Users and webmasters alike will possibly tire of mr. Knoppers many releases, most of those not changing anything substantial at all in the product.

And I must admit that this isn't something I would like to see happening to Knoppix. It's a great live CD, and I guess that many people try to install Knoppix on their harddisk as well. It does a great job in promoting Linux, and I really feel Knoppix can make a difference for Linux as an instrument to get Joe Average to look at Linux for an alternative to his Windows box.

So please mr. Knopper (if you read this forum at all), rethink your release flurry tactics, and go back to a reasonable release calendar.
With one release every three months or so you'd still beat each and every distro out there in terms of being "bleeding edge" , and your releases would attract far more attention then they do now.

A few final thoughts: if you really intend to further the "Linux Case" with your Knoppix product, then I feel you would be wise to put a little effort into making Knoppix easier to install to harddisk, with some nice and solid gui installer that offers some choice to the user, and if you really want to "corner the market" then some upgrade utility for users to upgrade their Knoppix installation from a knoppix repository would be an awesome tool.

kind regards
Paul V
11-20-2003, 06:53 PM
pau1knopp

Perhaps a little cheese with that whine?

You could have really made some legitimate points without stooping to the condescending attitude. For instance, suggesting that Klaus is not doing anyone a service by providing consistent updates to a top shelf product is a bit of a smack. Yes, you could consider it annoying OR you can always look at the changelog and see if you think it's worth the d/l time. I always burn mine to CDRW so that I don't fill up a landfill with toxic coasters.

And unless you're actually providing resources towards hosting a mirror sight, you should probably wait for a contributor's comments towards that subject. MAYBE they don't mind a bit...

Also, please note the "beta" disclaimer everytime you boot a Knoppix CD. This means if you can't hang with bleeding edge, you shouldn't be running a debian unstable distribution. For my part, I find it exceeds my needs and expectations in function, form, and stability.

Linux isn't just for Joe Average, although most of the people I associate with have no trouble putting a CD in, booting up their pc, and getting basic Windows type functionality out of the KDE interface with little or no trouble or training. I walked my 10 year old nephew through a hard drive install last month, and he informs me that he thinks it's as easy to install games using apt-get as it is to install games on his Windows computer.

Finally, why don't YOU put some effort into making Knoppix a quality product. Buy some of Klaus's consulting time so that he can continue to donate his time towards the the efforts he extends, not to the "market", but to the open source community.

Sorry if I'm coming off a little cranky, but I've been drinking Brazilian coffee all week, and the stuff is like liquid crack.

Regards,

~paul
11-20-2003, 07:29 PM
j.drake

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

Sorry if I'm coming off a little cranky, but I've been drinking Brazilian coffee all week, and the stuff is like liquid crack.

Oh, that wouldn't get me cranky - - it's getting OFF the coffee that makes me cranky!!

Very good points, and I also disagree with Paul V., FWIW. The downloads are there, take 'em if you want, leave 'em if you don't. Just because they come out more often than 3 months doesn't mean you have to D/L them that often. In the US, we have an expression of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth", which basically means kwitcherbitchin over something valuable that someone is giving you for free.
11-20-2003, 08:10 PM
moustache

Today you released another version of your acclaimed Knoppix live cd, the third new release in just a few weeks. It is really great! I appreciate it!
I feel you're really doing many people a big service with this, most of all the universities that so kindly have offered to mirror the Knoppix iso's providing local access to their students who use knoppix.

In my perception the current release speed is quite refreshing compared to other linux distos: people can be assured that there's constant attention for bugfixing. If this release flurry is aimed at keeping Knoppix high on the news sections of the best visited Linux websites, and getting reviews all the time, I think you are succeeding splendidly and I am not above firing back a supportive comment.

Users and webmasters alike will possibly never tire of mr. Knoppers many releases, allowing them to choose which updates/bugfixes to download by simply scanning the change log text file.

And I must admit that this is something I truly admire about Knoppix. It's a great live CD, and I guess that many people try to install Knoppix on their harddisk as well. It does a great job in promoting Linux, and I really feel Knoppix can make a difference for Linux as an instrument to give any microsoft windows user an alternative to his Windows box.

So please mr. Knopper (if you read this forum at all), accept my deepest gratitude, and continue with your cutting edge release calendar.
Even with one release every three months or so you'd still beat each and every distro out there in terms of being "bleeding edge". I don't see how your releases could attract any more attention then they do now.

A few final thoughts: I believe you have made great strides in furthering the "Linux Case" with your Knoppix product. I feel you have been wise to put so much effort into making Knoppix easier to install to harddisk. If someone (like paul_nl maybe?) wanted to write a nice and solid gui installer that offers some choice to the user, you would gladly put it in the next update. Of note are the other linux live distros you have inspired such as Morphix which allows for users to upgrade and customize their live cd (based on Knoppix) with an extensive module repository. It is an awesome tool.

kind regards
Moustache :D
11-20-2003, 08:20 PM
Hunkah

Re: Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

To all that have posted.

Very interesting reading, I agree with both sides in one way or another.

Important points:
1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_nl

It does a great job in promoting Linux, and I really feel Knoppix can make a difference for Linux as an instrument to get Joe Average to look at Linux for an alternative to his Windows box.

I agree with that totally, I am one for example. Since I have used Knoppix, I have gone on to install 5 or 6 different distros (or attempted to)

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_nl

A few final thoughts: if you really intend to further the "Linux Case" with your Knoppix product, then I feel you would be wise to put a little effort into making Knoppix easier to install to harddisk, with some nice and solid gui installer that offers some choice to the user, and if you really want to "corner the market" then some upgrade utility for users to upgrade their Knoppix installation from a knoppix repository would be an awesome tool.

I agree with this too, because distros are sometimes picky and usually take two tries (from my experience) to get installed. What I think is really needed on the knoppix disk (or someone else to create a "knewbix" distro for newbie Linux from Windows converts, that will include XPde, tons of games and gnucash and stuff that will make new converts see the full open source deal and never want to go back.)

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pau1knopp

Yes, you could consider it annoying OR you can always look at the changelog and see if you think it's worth the d/l time. I always burn mine to CDRW so that I don't fill up a landfill with toxic coasters.

I never thought of using a CD/RW!!! Thanks, that will save lots of landfill and money. I have made 4 Knoppix cds so far (one didn't work) and I agree, if you don't want to DL it DON'T!!! I myself have wondered if going through another DL and burn is worth the effort.

Sorry, I didn't take sides but I saw good points from both sides.
11-20-2003, 08:58 PM
aay

Re: Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_nl

In my perception the current release speed will also do other damage: people might start wondering if there's maybe little attention for bugfixing before releases for one, and if this release flurry would be aimed at keeping Knoppix high on the news sections of the best visited Linux websites, and getting reviews all the time, I'm afraid that over time this will backfire as well.
Users and webmasters alike will possibly tire of mr. Knoppers many releases, most of those not changing anything substantial at all in the product.

Have you been using Knoppix very long? Klaus has followed this kind of release schedule for years. Towards the beginning of this year he released something like 3 or 4 releases in 3 or 4 days. Only recently he's slowed down quite a bit. Perhaps you have taken that recent slowdown to be the norm. In any event Klaus has made frequent releases for some time and this hasn't resulted in any of the deleterious effects you have listed. If anything, it has helped Knoppix.

As far as the install tools go, Klaus really doesn't write these himself. Other Knoppix contribitors write them. For example Fabian Franz is responsible for the relatively new installer. So as the previous poster said, if someone wants some extra install or config tools to go along with Knoppix, then they should help write them.
11-20-2003, 09:45 PM
iho

Re: Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

Well Paul,

if someone constantly gets to the front of news pages. because of the service
he gives to the community, this is perfectly OK with me.

You, on the other hand, sound like someone who wants to make it to the front of
a newssite at least once, and knows he'll never do it for something he's created
himself.

Granted, there are worse ways of doing it, like what former Caldera is doing
right now.

Paul, I'm sorry if I'm right.

Kind regards,

Ingo
11-20-2003, 11:54 PM
Snow

Re: Open letter to Mr. Klaus Knopper

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iho

Granted, there are worse ways of doing it, like what former Caldera is doing
right now.

Ingo

You refer to SCO. That companie should burn in hell. I have some jet fule to donate to get the fire going. :D
11-21-2003, 04:45 AM
champagnemojo

You're comparing Knoppix to all the other distros, but I think that's a big mistake. Although I installed mine to the harddrive, many people use it as a live-cd and therefore are unable to update programs themselves. So, for example, with the recent changes in the instant message protocols the IM programs had to be updated to be used. And if Mr. Knopper waited 3 months to release a new version many people would be out of luck, if they wanted a certain bugfix or new feature in a program when running Knoppix as a live-cd.
11-21-2003, 07:54 AM
horo

Release Early, Release Often

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/ca...r/ar01s04.html

:D Danke Klaus! :D
Nothing more to say.

Ciao Martin
11-21-2003, 10:54 PM
DarrylPalmerJr

I guess the first issue with discussing the release schedule is identifying the targetted users. The LiveCD is a fast and easy way for people to get up-and-running using GNU/Linux. If people want to use the newest applications, or professors want to get a new download for their next semester's class, they can easily download the latest version and go.

The major thing that is different with Knoppix over other distributions is security and testing, but it wasn't made to stress this. It is based on Debian and they do perform alot of testing, but most of the packages in Knoppix are from the testing, unstable, or worse.

Knoppix is neat and useful but then again I hope there aren't "Knop"-heads out there that think it is OK to do a HD install and use it for Websphere or an Oracle server. :?