Knoppix and debian relationship

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02-16-2004, 02:52 PM
tarpon

Knoppix and debian relationship

Hello,

I have questions regarding Knoppix and Debian.

1. Are the packages in knoppix the same as Debian? Are there any gotchas with using additional Debian packages not included in the original Knoppix install?

2. When I do a apt-get upgrade are the updates just Debian updates? To maintain the install I just keep doing the Debian updates? Are the packages for the latest Knoppix release included in the Debian repository, so apt-get maintains a track of future updates and installs these?

3. Are there any Knoppix specific packages which don't get updated by the Debian apt-get repository or are all Knoppix packages in the debian repository? As an example, knx-alsa which I think is a knoppix specific alsa sound package.

4. When I do a hard disk install are the configuration files used to setup the booted liveCD knoppix reused or does hardware detect run again? Can I assmue that if the hardware is setup properly with the liveCD that it will also be setup correctly with the hd install. As an example, if I want alsa sound I set the cheatcode, but how do I force alsa sound in the hd-install.

thanks....
02-16-2004, 04:51 PM
gowator

me too.

Tarpon, I share your confusion in this!
I LOVE Knoppix,
Its the first distro to impress me in a long time!!!

However I find Im struggling on a HDD install with the heritage inherited from the liveCD.

Perhaps there's a FAQ somewhere we missed ??

I can't beleive its just us!!!

Perhaps many people have there first Linux distro as knoppix and don't know the difference ???
02-16-2004, 05:03 PM
dewd

#4 is pretty cool. Try to get all the configuration right with the Live-CD and it will be carried on to the HD installation automaticaly. If you did use some cheatcodes on the Live-CD they will be set in the append configuration of the lilo.conf file.
02-16-2004, 05:03 PM
tarpon

I have got 3.3 02/09/04 installed and the apt-get update works fine.

But I still can't figure out the heritage and the update strategy long term. I installed synaptic to browse the install and there are several knoppix specific packages that show up. So my original questions are still open.

It's a great distribution and I am interested in making it my main one.

The new C'T 3.4 also works fine, including the 2.6 kernel. Sound is my only sore spot so far. My system requires alsa to work properly.

I did answer one question, sort of. The alsa sound works from the liveCD with the cheatcode but does not install. It requires alsa_init to be run as root, but it does not survive a re-boot.

inquiring minds want to know.
02-16-2004, 08:32 PM
Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarpon

I did answer one question, sort of. The alsa sound works from the liveCD with the cheatcode but does not install. It requires alsa_init to be run as root, but it does not survive a re-boot.

inquiring minds want to know.

For some reason that still baffles me as well the default volumes do not get saved once you run that setup so the system starts up with the speakers muted. Try running the alsamixer to setup your levels and and then I believe it is alsactl store to save the settings.
02-16-2004, 08:46 PM
Stephen

Re: Knoppix and debian relationship

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarpon

Hello,

I have questions regarding Knoppix and Debian.

1. Are the packages in knoppix the same as Debian? Are there any gotchas with using additional Debian packages not included in the original Knoppix install?

Yes to 1a and not really most packages will install without problems but you can run into trouble because of all the packages that are installed to the disk. With that many packages installed that you have no use for there are greater chances of them conflicting with something that you want to install.

Quote:

2. When I do a apt-get upgrade are the updates just Debian updates? To maintain the install I just keep doing the Debian updates? Are the packages for the latest Knoppix release included in the Debian repository, so apt-get maintains a track of future updates and installs these?

2a. Yes 2b. Yes 2c. All the Debian specific ones yes the Knoppix related never have been part of the Debian archive thus will not get updated and there is no need to ever update them as they will really never be used again once installed except for something like the alsa-autoconfig and maybe netcardconfig.

Quote:

3. Are there any Knoppix specific packages which don't get updated by the Debian apt-get repository or are all Knoppix packages in the debian repository? As an example, knx-alsa which I think is a knoppix specific alsa sound package.

See answer to 2c.

Quote:

4. When I do a hard disk install are the configuration files used to setup the booted liveCD knoppix reused or does hardware detect run again? Can I assmue that if the hardware is setup properly with the liveCD that it will also be setup correctly with the hd install. As an example, if I want alsa sound I set the cheatcode, but how do I force alsa sound in the hd-install.

thanks....

If it works from the CD then it is just a matter of using the proper configuration to get it working on the HD if there are problems after install most times though the proper configuration gets copied to the HD.
02-16-2004, 10:10 PM
tarpon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

For some reason that still baffles me as well the default volumes do not get saved once you run that setup so the system starts up with the speakers muted. Try running the alsamixer to setup your levels and and then I believe it is alsactl store to save the settings.

The things you suggest don't seem to fix the sticky part. A quick look with lsmod shows the plain sound modules load on reboot, not the alsa modules. Running alsa_init unloads them and loads the alsa modules.

Thanks for the detailed answer. Clears up a lot. Might be a good addition to the FAQ.

I was hoping that Knoppix could be an installer for long term Debian use, but looks like there may be too many twists and turns for that. Knoopix is great for what it is though. I use it as a diag and recovery tool. With NTFS added it's just that much better. Perfect distro for the try before you commit crowd.
02-16-2004, 11:45 PM
Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarpon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

For some reason that still baffles me as well the default volumes do not get saved once you run that setup so the system starts up with the speakers muted. Try running the alsamixer to setup your levels and and then I believe it is alsactl store to save the settings.

The things you suggest don't seem to fix the sticky part. A quick look with lsmod shows the plain sound modules load on reboot, not the alsa modules. Running alsa_init unloads them and loads the alsa modules.

Check to see if to see if the modules are in the /etc/modules if they are put a # character in front of the line or if you want remove the line.

Quote:

Thanks for the detailed answer. Clears up a lot. Might be a good addition to the FAQ.

I was hoping that Knoppix could be an installer for long term Debian use, but looks like there may be too many twists and turns for that. Knoopix is great for what it is though. I use it as a diag and recovery tool. With NTFS added it's just that much better. Perfect distro for the try before you commit crowd.

It takes a little work but you can turn Knoppix into Debian eventually just get used to the system and start removing the packages one at a time that you do not need. Eventually the configuration files that are there from knoppix will be replaced by the default Debian ones if you let the system do that, it will always make a backup of the file with .dpkg-old on the end so you can compare the two if you do not like the new behavior. Then you can get around to removing the Knoppix specific packages and now you will have Debian.
02-17-2004, 01:44 PM
gowator

Any hints!!!

Stephen,

Thats really helpfull so far....

My problem is I have present years on RH derived systems,
I have 'played' about with Debian on my laptop but like so much nowadays I don't get to play as much as I'd like ... and my two day failure to get X working led me to give up and I ended up actually using Lindows....

However, I recently installed Debian on my XBOX (:D)
and the knoppix liveCD solved lots of little hardware quirks (like PCMCIA under RedHat) that have been bugging me forever.

So my problem seems to be that I don't really know the Debian specificities... to start off with. On top of that Im trying to work out what exactly is a difference from Debian and what is a difference from Knoppix.

In most cases I just end up patching round something when a better solution existed. An example is the SYS V init scripts which it was quicker to just write and symlink .... whereas the /etc/modules.conf prob you helped me with is a Debian 'quirk'. Like many once you know/understand it its actually superior..... its just knowing they are there.

Can you recommend any reading.... can we post up some easy migration hints and tips ???

The answer seems to be that having gained some knowledge I can now go back and reinstall a true Debian.... but there seems so much potential in starting from knoppix.

Also I want to use the LiveCd's too, I'd like some semblance of continuity across them.

The HD install seems kinda new compared to the Live version so it has a few niceties to iron out i guess, it would be nice to be able to work on it and then share the solutions.

Im really keen to try and keep with knoppix as opposed to knoppix deriviatives.... even though I realise a HD install is a derivative itself it ends up being only 2 steps from the original - if we say Debian is the origin. Whereas starting from a different derivative is just extending the path and making problems later when something changes it will take longer to filter through and be harder to implement.
02-17-2004, 02:56 PM
tarpon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Check to see if to see if the modules are in the /etc/modules if they are put a # character in front of the line or if you want remove the line.

Still working on the alsa sound issue ...
Played around with knoppix hd install again and still cannot get the alsa ver to load by default on reboot. It also appears that knoppix alsa is not the same as the debian version and does not install the same, but I could be mistaken.

How can I get rid of the Knoppix HD installed alsa and install the Debian versions? synaptic? or is there another pkg manager that may be better to use.

more info .... I added the lines
./alsa-autoconfig
aumix -w 80 -v 80

..... to the /etc/init.d/bootmisc.sh file and the sound came on at boot, BUT XMMS would not run, it crashed. Interesting that all the sound effects worked after boot though.

Sure would like to use Knoppix as a default Debian installer. It makes it so easy to get a system running on Debian.

tb
02-17-2004, 04:23 PM
dewd

tarpom, I reinstalled Knoppix to the hard disk yesterday after messing around with the system (I tried to compile xfree 4.3 but it got installed with ugly fonts and that was enough for me to start over), but instead of installing the "knoppix" version which does indeed carry some configurations to the hard disk, I installed the "debian" version which does not carry the configurations to the hard disk (at least lilo.conf's "append" didn't have the cheatcodes). That said, I had to load my ethernet card and sound card manually as well.
To load alsa I ran /etc/init.d/alsa(something I can't remember) start
Don't know where is the more appropriate place to load alsa automatically that way.
02-17-2004, 09:05 PM
Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarpon

Still working on the alsa sound issue ...
Played around with knoppix hd install again and still cannot get the alsa ver to load by default on reboot. It also appears that knoppix alsa is not the same as the debian version and does not install the same, but I could be mistaken.

How can I get rid of the Knoppix HD installed alsa and install the Debian versions? synaptic? or is there another pkg manager that may be better to use.

You are correct the knoppix alsa is a kludge to get it working. If you want to use a Debian version then you need to either install a kernel and the alsa modules for that kernel from the Debian archives or get the alsa-source,alsa-base, alsa-utils and compile the modules for the kernel you are now running.

Quote:

more info .... I added the lines
./alsa-autoconfig
aumix -w 80 -v 80

..... to the /etc/init.d/bootmisc.sh file and the sound came on at boot, BUT XMMS would not run, it crashed. Interesting that all the sound effects worked after boot though.

Sure would like to use Knoppix as a default Debian installer. It makes it so easy to get a system running on Debian.

tb

The ./alsa-autoconfig is unnecessary it only has to be run the once the aumix to set the levels is fine. For the XMMS you should check into the preferences and make sure that you are using the alsa for the output plugin it sould not be crashing you may want to apt-get install --reinstall xmms if the crashes continue.
02-17-2004, 09:45 PM
Stephen

Re: Any hints!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gowator

Stephen,

Thats really helpfull so far....

My problem is I have present years on RH derived systems,
I have 'played' about with Debian on my laptop but like so much nowadays I don't get to play as much as I'd like ... and my two day failure to get X working led me to give up and I ended up actually using Lindows....

You may also want to look into Xandros and Libranet they are both based on Debian as well. You can get an older version of the Libranet to test for free I'm not sure about the Xandros but from the reviews I have read for the new version 2 it is supposedly a three or four click install and everything just works.

Quote:

However, I recently installed Debian on my XBOX (:D)
and the knoppix liveCD solved lots of little hardware quirks (like PCMCIA under RedHat) that have been bugging me forever.

So my problem seems to be that I don't really know the Debian specificities... to start off with. On top of that Im trying to work out what exactly is a difference from Debian and what is a difference from Knoppix.

The differences as far as I can figure out are the sysvinit, the alsa kludge, configuration files that get installed and the knoppix specific scripts that are used on the CD.

Quote:

In most cases I just end up patching round something when a better solution existed. An example is the SYS V init scripts which it was quicker to just write and symlink .... whereas the /etc/modules.conf prob you helped me with is a Debian 'quirk'. Like many once you know/understand it its actually superior..... its just knowing they are there.

Can you recommend any reading.... can we post up some easy migration hints and tips ???

The best place I have ever found is the Debian User mailing list now it is a little on the high volume side (250+ emails a day sometimes) to be coming into your inbox but you can use Gmane to read the list and if you want reply to or post your own thread. Anything you ever want to know about Debian is in that list somewhere or someone on there knows the answer to your question, it is also good to give it a quick scan before you upgrade just to check for any problems there may be happening at the moment and as always your favorite search engine can usually come up with at least snippets of information to point you in the right direction to ask a smart question or sometimes the entire solution to the problem. By migration tips do you mean coming from another distro to Debian or making Knoppix into Debian so you will not have problems that may be leftover from the Knoppix install?

Quote:

The answer seems to be that having gained some knowledge I can now go back and reinstall a true Debian.... but there seems so much potential in starting from knoppix.

I went the Debian route last year (actually a CD called Mini Woody now know as Bonzai Linux) just to be sure that everything I have installed on my machine is Debian so any problems I have and they have been few are all related to strictly Debian problems and no leftovers I may have missed.

Quote:

Im really keen to try and keep with knoppix as opposed to knoppix deriviatives.... even though I realise a HD install is a derivative itself it ends up being only 2 steps from the original - if we say Debian is the origin. Whereas starting from a different derivative is just extending the path and making problems later when something changes it will take longer to filter through and be harder to implement.

Exactly who knows problem A may from this variant, B this other one and C from yet another not really a good idea to try and have to track that down.
02-17-2004, 10:42 PM
gowator

Re: Any hints!!!

Lots of answers....:D :D :D

Quote:

You may also want to look into Xandros and Libranet they are both based on Debian as well. You can get an older version of the Libranet to test for free I'm not sure about the Xandros but from the reviews I have read for the new version 2 it is supposedly a three or four click install and everything just works.

On the laptop I wanna get rid of Lindows...
It was just after a month messing about in Mandrake trying to get PCMCIA working AND wireless at the same time I was ready to try anything... Xandros didn't even install fully.
(I could probably have repaired the install, it was only lilo and the homedirectories and a few bits but I desperately needed wireless on PCMCIA)

Up to that point I'd disabled PCMCIA in lilo and edited out the intit scripts!! For at least a year...

Can you recommend any reading.... can we post up some easy migration hints and tips ???

I guess I mean BOTH.....

Quote:

The differences as far as I can figure out are the sysvinit, the alsa kludge, configuration files that get installed and the knoppix specific scripts that are used on the CD.

Well all of that helps !!!
The mailing list.... hmmm email is something I need to fix ... my new knoppix based server isn't happy with qmail.. or perhpas the other way round. So Im relying on yahoo mail!!! (Its really close I can manually put messages in the queue !!!!)

Im figuring it out slowly.... just bit off a big chunk with the server/router ....

Once its stable and working and I have email!!! i can start on a new server.... (reuse last one)
Id love to sort it out from a knoppix install becuase ultimately I'd like a liveCd with everything to install a server on... (Im not actually sure why...????)