ckamin,

Nice... ( I think I was like this when I just started out; something breaks, or doesnt work, and I would post, to get answers )

One point, I'd like to make, though, your response was very detailed, one thing I recalled, from my experience, came to mind... I didnt know HOW to get the information... The Linux commands are archaic, even the ls command isnt intuitively named as to what it does... Let alone lspci, lsmod, etc... A person "thrown" into Linux, and probably, not willingly, hasnt a clue what the command is, and thus, may not be able to even use the simple man pages to get information on something they dont even know how to spell, or that it even exists.

Being, a past phone support tech, for the enemy, back on the roll-out of Win95, M$ taugh us to do three things... 1 ) Fix the problem, timely, or get them to someone who will. 2 ) Show them how they can FIND the answer that we did, so, if it happens again, they can find the answer themselves. 3 ) Ween them from using our support, in essence, put ourselves out of business, or our jobs.

I, also, added one more thing into the "requirement", and that was show them something "a little more" each time, that would help them in there own daily computer work, working with our OS... Sometimes, it was being able to start a program, or config screen, three different ways; Device Manager could be started from three places; 1 ) click on START, and select it from the menu, 2 ) was right click on the MY COMPUTER and select PROPERTIES, etc... This same process applies to the way you change VIDEO SETTINGS configuration, etc...

For me, learning Linux was, a liitle scarey, "am I going to break it?" kind of thing. What am I typing, and what does it do? Is it broadcasting important information that is "privacy" related, is it openning my system up to any threats, or attacks? etc... A "very" high amount of TRUST is placed on asking for assistance, and I dont place any less responsibility of "keeping that trust" that is placed on me, on giving bad information, or, taking advantage of someone who might not know what they are doing to "break" that trust. If I know the answer, I respond in kind, if I dont, but I "think" I do, I will ALWAYS say so...

I dont believe on leading someone on a wild-goose-chase, nor giving them non-sensical commands that wont accomplish what they are trying to do... Had enough of that with the phone support, and other techs... "Yeah, just format your hard drive, that will solve your dial-up problems", kind of thing.

In a case of a "dial-up connection problem" - I am quite sure that "re-installing" from scratch will solve the problem, but, it may not be necessary... In the case of Linux / Knoppix / Kanotix, it may only require examination of the symlink on the /dev/modem, and ensuring that it is pointing to the correct, and right port that the modem may be on... Why cause the extra greif of having to re-install, when it isnt necessary... In the phone support job I had, simply, one answer, to why this was being done... to ditch the customer.

ckamin,

You pretty much hit the nail "dead center" in your response... I just wanted to add that many people, who are posting, are frustrated, either by there own accord, or by forces not of there own, and, that, many, dont know anything of this OS, how it works, or how it is examined. They dont know what to type, what to change, or, even, why they would ever. They dont know the commands, and many, dont have a clue that even a "manual" exists for most, if not all, the commands, already is loaded, and kept, by the system.

Some people dont have a clue what they even have. They buy a computer from Dell, or Gateway, or get it from a friend or family member, and have never seen what is even inside of it... They were "given" this "marvel of technology" sight unseen, and barely know, if that, how to connect the myriad of cables onto the back of it, let alone, detailed information of the components that are contained within it.

I once asked someone if they had a computer, they respnded they did. I then thought we could have a discussion on details of there system, and asked what kind of processor does it have, they didnt have a clue what I was talking about... The response, was, I dont know, but, its a FAST one! ( and you want chipset information from this kind of a person? I dont think you are going to get it. )

Trouble-shooting with these kinds of people, rely severely on the ability to get them to type something that will "tell them" what they have... MODEM = "blah blah blah, chipset XXYYZZ" - hence, why a lot of things can either be typed, or files examined, that will report back what was found. Windows takes advantage of this, for one, because they knew what kind of "technical" people they are selling there OS to, and, two, they knew these people wouldnt know this information, or be able to find out, on there own.

If a person doesnt know what kind of processor they even bought, or, would respond with "its a fast one", you want these people to open there own computer? I dont think so. I wouldnt let them, I'd try my best to get my answers BEFORE I would let them crack open there own case. I'm not going to "open myself up" to any legalities of stray static charges, them deciding to "play" with that "big chip thingy" with the fan and hugh heat sink on it, while they are nosing around inside the computer...

Technical Support people have to decide what "they" feel the "level of expertise" is of the person they are trying to help, and, upon knowing that, dictate the "how are we going to solve the problem" against that level of experience. They have to decide just how "far" they can go, with the person, before they are asking for trouble. This is another reason for some of the "posting" subject lines, and even the body of there questions, it gives the "level of expertise" the poster is working from...

If the subject line says: HELP ME!
and the body says something like this: I dont have a clue what happened, it just broke.

You gonna have this person crack open there computer and tell you what they have inside it? I dont think so... This kind of a post shows EXACTLY what "level" the person is coming from, either within Linux, or with computers. ( in many cases, its just the "newness" of the Linux, they could be quite competent in Windows -=- DISCLAIMER HERE )

Chances are, if you would come across this kind of post, the person is clueless, helpless, and probably, very frustrated, at this situation. Resolve would, no doubt, be a long string of responses of "type this command" and post back the output... these commands would probably be, commands that tell what "internally" is installed on the system, what is running, etc... without having to deal with asking them all the details of there own system, because, as we both know, they wouldnt know them.

As for the whole "post correctly" thing, in the situation above, they did, they didnt know, and they wouldnt be able to, know. You dont want them to know, anyway... As the old saying goes... Cut To The Chase! Who cares if they know what they have or not, the problem is, they want "this" fixed, they, and many people fit into this category, they DONT WANT TO KNOW, and they feel, they dont NEED to know either, what they have in there own system. They come to you, to fix it, not be educated. The trick is, how do you fix it without giving them the education they dont want? ANSWER: give them commands to get you the information YOU want, to assist in fixing THERE problem, without making them feel degraded, or having to learn anything in the deal.

type lsmod and post the output here...

pk, type rmmod xxxxxxx -=- and then try it...

great, it works, thank you for the helping me, HELP YOU, fix your problem

From the "general populous", this is just enough information for them, without saying you have to "learn" why, and what you are doing... lsmod lists out all the modules that are currently running on your system, the offending module that is causing you problems is the one listed, in your output, named xxxxxxxx, so we need to remove that module, so, type this, and just to be sure it went away, do another lsmod, and check through the listing, again, and see if it is still listed, no? good, then test the problem again, and see if it is fixed. it is? great, have a nice day...

Some people WANT to learn, but, a vast majority, of the general public, doesnt. Linux is archaic, cryptic, foreign, you name it, to these people. They want the system to work, thats it. Whether it be, to play solitare only, or do there monthly financial balancing, etc... or whatever, they want it just to work. When these people have something break, they dont care, in many cases, how much it costs, or how much THEY could fix it themselves, they think its all VOO-DOO chants, and just want it fixed.

The people who deal with these kinds of people, just have to take heart, they arent going to change. The posts arent going to change, We have to change. If you have any "background" in the computer support field, you are barking up the wrong tree, if you think "everyone" is going to change. As Mr. Spock said in Star Trek - The Motion Picture: "The needs of the MANY, outwiegh, the needs of the FEW" - tech support people, though many, are not as many as the people who are asking for help. Thus, we, the support people, need to change to reflect the needs of the ones we are trying to help.

I know this "ruffles" a few feathers, and bandwidth is going to suffer, but, what are we fighting for? For the "new people" to not be "new"? For these people to come here "enlightened" already? A newbie is just that, new, not a guru, not a genius, not a Linux savy person, they may, and in most cases, be, completely lost. I think there posts will reflect that, and, we, are trying to educate these lost souls, trying to fix there problems, trying to help them, thats it. We can "try" to help them fix it themselves, but, as the support field goes, that isnt our choice, it is theres. The last thing I have to say, along these lines, is, if we want the posts to get more "inteligent", we need to be more "supportive", more "understanding", and, lastly, dont fall back to, what, it appears, we are heading towards, posting responses on these people, who come to us for all the above stated, and simply post a response stating RTFM!

The "Linux Community" is growing because we are ALL trying to be supportive, of everyone, and anyone, who asks for assistance. This is our "growth potention", this is what we are coming into being known for. Asking newbies not to be new, is ludicrous. A teacher is only as good as there students are to learning. Ask anyone who teaches, if the student doesnt want to learn, nothing a teacher can do, to change that. We are not only "teachers", but, we are also being asked to be "technicians". An Eletrical Technician, who is employed to wiring your house, doesnt go around "educating" the household on how THEY can do there own main breaker wiring for there own house... And, many people dont ask, thats why we PAY THEM for that. They have the knowledge, the education, and the job, of doing that... Not us.

So? Are We Support Technicians, or are we Teachers? ( or a combination of both, as the need, or post, requires? )

Ms. Cuddles