Why not Knoppix on the HD?

[DelphiDude]

I have seen quite a few comments about not reccommending that Knoppix be used on the hard drive, that is was made to be a Live CD only. Could the folks who have this opinion give me their reasons? Not a flame war, just honest opinions and reasons.

I have been using Debian since Red Hat abandoned the non-commercial side of Linux. But I discovered Knoppix back about 3.3 and fell in love with it. Used it not only on my machines at home but also as the desktop in several school labs. We have several production servers with 3.6 to 3.8 and they work flawlessly. The fact that they are so solid is the main reason that we got permission to begin to migrate from that bloatware nightmare called IIS and later WinXX. As far as I can see, once you apt-get upgrade you wind up with almost the same OS as if you installed Woody in the first place. Of course, you still have to go through the security stuff and make sure that there are no gaping holes, but any sane administrator would need to do that with a commercial Enterprise system also.

Version 3.8 is the most stable Linux that I have seen yet. We had our MS IIS proxy die about one day before it HAD to be online for testing and our techies were bouncing off the wall trying to get it up without success. By the next morning we had built a "Temporary" server from parts from Fry's electronics, loaded K3.8, Squid and Dansguardian, and made it with about 4 hours to spare. Months later it is still running and servicing about 1500 internet users in our district. A "real" one has been built and loaded and is on standby but so far we have seen absolutely no reason to replace the one that we cranked up during the disaster.

So, you aren't going to change my mind, but I am open to argument.

Thanx all.
DelphiDude

[UnderScore]

First read http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Hd_Install_HowTo for a overview of the HD install and its warnings.
Then read through all of this http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19761

[tdjokic]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for hd" - same, but better. Nice forum too (german & english), autor of distro is on the forum often.

[DelphiDude]

Good links UnderScore. And I learned a couple of things. But, sorry, I am unconvinced.

First off, I had a really bad day with brand new Dells and Brand new XP Pros with SP2 - about the worst combination imaginable. 8 reboots each, half dozen Dumping Physical Memory BSODs (Dells answer - "Reload the system!" "Oh, you've done that 3 times already?" "Ok, try it again and call us back"), continuous bubble popups telling me 47 times that the install is insecure - heck I know that -- its Windows!!. At least the Passport crap has been done away with.

And you expect me to worry about Knoppix on the HD because I "might" have a minor problem or two. Ha!

I think the tone of the warnings is too negative. No problem with making sure that newbies know that it is not primarily intended for use as a non-Live CD, but don't chase them off. By the time they learn enough to know the minor difference between Debian and Knoppix they will know all about the topic. And I still maintain that Knoppix goes on and works better on the HD than many made-for-HD distros, including that other OS.

I have used Knoppix to get many newbies started. I hand the platters out like candy. First to use the Live CD and discover that they can surf all night long and not worry about what they click on or open. Then stick it on their HD and dual boot with whatever Bloatware OS they have and continue the learning process. Then much later in their learning cycle, if they want "purity", go for raw Debian or Slackware or whatever.

Heck, if XP had anywhere close to as few warts as Knoppix on the HD has, Bill G would think that a choir of angels had adopted his stuff.

Thanks
DelphiDude

[UnderScore]

You and I are not the target audience for the warnings. Newbies will have difficulties with a latest CD release Knoppix 3.9 install on the HD because it breaks networking. See http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Bugs/3.9-2005-05-27 and bug #15. You are not a newbie and you yourself experienced a minor bug with installing DVD 4.0 http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20285 and its manpages because something always breaks. If you feel the warnings are too negative, then what alternative means of communication do you suggest to make sure our current and potential userbase is educated about this. There are other resources on the net that unintentionally & inadvertantly spreads incorrect information. I can not warn the masses or convert other websites to my line of thinking so instead I help change what I can. Unless a new release makes the HD install not break something and makes administrating it a cakewalk, then my suggestions stands: Knoppix HD installs are not to be done by newbies if they want an easy to maintain Linux system.

[oscar]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for hd" - same, but better. Nice forum too (german & english), autor of distro is on the forum often.

Kanotix is "Knoppix for live-cd" too, same but better.

[Harry Kuhman]

Kanotix is "Knoppix for live-cd" too, same but better.

Come on people, better is like saying "my religion is better than your religion". It is meaningless if left to stand on its own merits, which seems to be what people here are doing. While I am one of the people who advocate installing Debian and don't believe in installing a disc that is intended as a Live CD to hard disk, I will also say that for many people who insist on doing this, Kantonix is a better choice than Knoppix. But I'll also give a reason: Kantonix is said to have put a lot of effort into sticking with one single Debian release where Knoppix has not. So where a simple update will usually break Knoppix, it should not do so to Kantonix. So if you must install a Line CD to hard disk you are likely better off with Kantonix.

Of course, if you install a Live CD without even trying to install a current version of Debian first, then you are making a completely uninformed choice and you deserve whatever ills befall you.

And, as the small print on the hdd install forun says, "Once you have installed Knoppix, it basicly becomes debian....". Of course, this is true in much that same way that after you paint a racing stripe on a Volkswagon it basically becomes a Ferrari.

[oscar]

ok....but what about Kantonix versus Kanotix?

[DelphiDude]

You and I are not the target audience for the warnings. Newbies will have difficulties with a latest CD release Knoppix 3.9 install on the HD because it breaks networking. See .

UnderScore, I didn't mean to come off as critical of the Knoppix crew. I think you all are doing a magnificent job. I just think that that you are so high up in the Knoppix chain that you don't realise just how valuable a tool that Knoppix is to a newbie (way down at the bottom) wanting to learn Linux but not having either the experience or a local guru to work with. The new Debian installer is much better but until recently the old installer was guaranteed to send any newbie screaming back to windows. They wouldn't get 3 screens deep before the installer asked a question for which they don't even recognise the words, let alone the question - even with a book. Also especially since kids today are TRAINED to click on the setup icon and sit back until finished. It is difficult to get a student back into thinking for his or herself.

With Knoppix, they have a working Linux in the time it takes to boot. Not hours and days of frustration trying to find out what color the transistors on the Nic card are. If it hooks them, the next thing they want is a permanent install. Knoppix again will do that with a minimum of problems - usually no problems. But any would-be young guru will expect to have some problems with a new OS - they wouldn't even be interested if it was a plug and play and never fiddle with it again proposition. And after a time they will move on to heaver installs and become real members of the Linux community.

The last part is not just a theory. I work as the jack-of-all-PC-trades in a school district and we run our labs with Knoppix Live Cds and some servers on either Debian or Knoppix (Plus one Red Hat for a reason I won't go into.) The Knoppix boot disks are may be taken home for the asking and there is always a certain percentage of students who suddenly find that world underneath the Windowed Desktop in the real insides of an OS to be absolutely fascinating. If I had given them the Woody installer, most would have come back the next day or so and said that they couldn't even get started and would have gone on with Windows.

So...

Knoppix is a Live CD distro and intended as such.
But it works well as an HD distro as long as the person keeps in mind the previous AND that a new release may have unknown problems pertaining to the HD.
It is a very easy way to get started in Linux. And I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the USA, anything that can pry a kid away from the TV and Gameboy/Xbox is extremely valuable.

Again, thanks
DelphiDude

[foamrotreturns]

The only reason I recommend against installing a LiveCD onto a permanent, production server is that LiveCDs are not intended for that purpose. They can be installed to HDD in a pinch, and sometimes even work great for a personal machine like a laptop or a workstation. However, the concept of a production environment calls for the utmost in stability and reliability. Knoppix doesn't offer that, Kanotix doesn't, Slax doesn't, NO LiveCD does.
Any sysadmin will tell you that if you're running a server, you better go with the most stable software you can find. When it comes to Linux, Debian Woody is a great stable server OS. I'm running it on a really old box as my server right now, as a matter of fact.
Lastly, newbies have no business installing a production server's OS. And experienced users such as your self have no business taking the newbie route and installing a LiveCD as your production server OS.
Just my $0.02