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Thread: Flash to USB installer (experimental) in 7.0.5

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Ok... First - Thank you for the quick responses. On Knoppix DVD 7.05 from USB... experimental... I ran 'knoppix testdvd' and it Failed. Thank you.
    Straute wrote:
    The message You described might come from the Knoppix boot loader, but I am not sure. Is the same
    message displayed when you start Your PC without any (USB-) Flash storage device attached?
    "The Only messages I have received since I started, are: the 'UI error' and the 'Can't find Kernel' error." Without USB inserted ? No Error Messages.

    Can Your PC boot from other flash memory storage devices?
    "Yes. My PC can boot from a 256MB Lexar with an install of Spin-write."

    Can other PCs/Laptops boot Knoppix from Your USB flash memory devices?
    "Yes. This was experienced since I last wrote you. Lots of fun. We saw Ubutu's (Orange Interface) and the 8GB SanDisk w Overlay.

    *Question: Does the 8GB allow for saving of settings?

    Also, we saw the 16GB SanDisk w an 11GB Reiser Partition. (We re-formatted and are using this stick to experiment with - In WinXP Pro version 2002 with SP3 on an AMD Athlon XP 2400+ 2.GHz, 2.GB of RAM, a PCChips M848A M-Board.

    *We're using 'xbootvs1.0beta14.exe' (a program that will build a multi-boot stick). I'm trying multi installs on one stick. To date, the completed stick tests OK with 'qemu-0.8.1-windows' - But when it is re-booted, the USB gives 'Boot Error'. The stick also gives a Boot Error on oter PCs. This is All OK. I can slow down, read the docs and do it step by step.

    The ISO's I have chosen are; Knoppix DVD 7.05, Backtrack 5R3 - BT5R3-GNOME-32.iso, the Linux Network Security Toolkit - nst-18-4509.i686.iso, Puppy Linux - lupu-528.005.iso, the System Rescue CD systemrescuecd-x86-3.5.0.iso, Clonezilla -clonezilla-live-20130314-quantal-i386.iso, and Ultimate Boot CD for Windows - UBCD4WinV360.exe."

    To Download these files (ISO's) we use: LinuxLive USB Creator 2.8.20.exe, live-usb-install-2.3.10.exe, and unetbootin-windows-583.exe.

    To Burn ISO Image to CD/DVD we use: PowerISO5.exe, and or ImgBurn_2.5.7.0.exe

    However, I still cannot boot these USB sticks on my PC ( All 3 sticks work 'Great' on other PCs ).

    -----------------------------------

    In Your BIOS setup, please check the boot device order (and other USB-related options).
    "these other USB-related options" - in my computer BIOS, I found where they are all, 'Enabled'.

    Perhaps Your PC-BIOS gets confused by the second partition(s) ("/dev/sd?2") created by the experimental installer - Try to use the normal/older flash install program from Knoppix DVD with Your 8 GB Sandisk stick.
    "Sounds good. I will try it soon. ( I let someone play w 8GB this weekend) He was instantly hooked on the spinning compiz 3dcube Interface." He may join Forum.

    Only storage devices with memory capacity bigger than 8 GB can really benefit from the new experimental installer anyway.
    "What does this mean? I'm thinking the overlay and/or Reiser partition is an area to compress-decompress the USB/DVD programs as well as save settings and any file downloads?"

    If You have the Knoppix DVD image, then You can try to write that to another DVD+-R(W).
    "I'm doing that (writing to a DVD RW) this morning."

    After that checks out You could boot that USB stick again and try the experimental installer from there to install on a separate USB flash storage device (to get a file system which is not just writable but with changes persisting across reboots).
    "We did this last night. We had the experimental program of the 64GB Lexar USB (DVD 7.05 w 15GB partition) write to the 16GB SanDisk and it is now persistent w 11GB partition."

    "OK Gentlemen, that's where I am this morning. I would like to see my USB boot on my PC. I know my USB will boot to DOS... Maybe there is a 'LILO' type menu I can put on the USB stick to solve my problem w a menu selection?" Thanks for all the great help and patience. Stay well, and I'm keeepin on.


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    Edit by moderator
    Please use the "Go Advanced" button to have more abilities to format the posting; before sending your posting use "Preview" to see how it looks like.

    If "noscript" is active for http://knoppix.net/forum/ disable it for this website; otherwise you cannot use the format abilities.
    Last edited by Werner P. Schulz; 04-28-2013 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Make it more readable

  2. #42
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    File system (images) on Knoppix flash media, traditional vs. experimental installer

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    ...
    My PC can boot from a 256MB Lexar with an install of Spin-write.
    ...
    We saw Ubutu's (Orange Interface) and the 8GB SanDisk w/ Overlay.
    So Your PC can boot from USB flash storage media.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Question: Does the 8GB allow for saving of settings?
    Yes. The "traditonal" Knoppix flash installer can create an overlay file system directly on bootable flash media (not just in RAM, as most LiveCD systems do). It then continously saves all file system changes in this overlay file system.
    All those changes can therefore survive reboots, that's why such an overlay file system is called persistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Also, we saw the 16GB SanDisk w an 11GB Reiser Partition. (We re-formatted and are using this stick to experiment with - In WinXP Pro version 2002 with SP3 on an AMD Athlon
    ...
    ... but (as i understand it) this PC is not the PC You are still having boot Problems with - Is that correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    *We're using 'xbootvs1.0beta14.exe' (a program that will build a multi-boot stick). I'm trying multi installs on one stick. To date, the completed stick tests OK with 'qemu-0.8.1-windows' - But when it is re-booted, the USB gives 'Boot Error'. The stick also gives a Boot Error on oter PCs. This is All OK. I can slow down, read the docs and do it step by step.
    That all sounds interesting (and might make for interesting threads in this forum), but the topic
    of this thread is the experimental flash installer. Please try to stick to that (Small diversions are not bad as such, but they seem to be accumlate in this thread, thus reducing its value for other readers.).
    I am guessing here: You could boot Knoppix inside a virtual guest PC provided by a Qemu hosted by Windows on your PC? Please note: Virtual Machines/Emulators/Hypervisors provide their own firmware/"ROM" BIOS for guests operating systems; If You can boot Knoppix as a guest in a VM, that does not tell us much about your "real" (VM host) PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    ...(lots of comments about experimentation not directly related to experimental flash installer removed)...
    However, I still cannot boot these USB sticks on my PC ( All 3 sticks work 'Great' on other PCs ).
    Can You boot on Your PC from a flash medium written by the "traditional" Knoppix flash installer?
    But not from a flash medium written by the experimental installer, which is bootable on other PCs?
    If that is the case, then Your PC firmware/BIOS might dislike flash media with multiple partitions.

    (Relating to my comment that the experimental Knoppix installer only has real benefit if used with storage media with capacity above 8 GB...)
    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    What does this mean? I'm thinking the overlay and/or Reiser partition is an area to compress-decompress the USB/DVD programs as well as save settings and any file downloads?
    The "traditional" flash installer creates the persistent overlay partition as a partition image file hosted inside the single FAT32 partition encompassing the whole flash storage medium. FAT32 file systems allow a maximum file size of 4 GiB. To have more space (to allow for more persistent changes), a larger overlay file system is needed.
    The experimental flash installer does overcome this limit of FAT32 by creating a second partition on the flash media to hold the persistent overlay file system, placed right after the FAT32 partition and seperate from it. This type of persistent overlay partition happens to contain a reiserfs file system.
    It can be encrypted but does not offer transparent data compression (Because that only works really good for read only file systems, such as the ISO file system containing the original [and optionally remastered] Knoppix files. This read-only ISO exists as a partition image file hosted inside the bootable FAT32 partition for flash media written by both the traditional and the experimental flash installer programs. It has to be in a image file [not a real partition] because it is a compressed ISO which can only be uncompressed when mounted through the cloop driver. This also holds true for Knoppix CDs/DVDs, where this compressed ISO image file exists as file KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX hosted inside the ISO file system encompassing the optical medium.)
    On a 8 GB flash medium/storage device there only is room for boot files, a compressed ISO image file from a Knoppix DVD (3.81 GiB) and a overlay file system smaller than 4 GiB. You could write a flash medium containing only the CD version of Knoppix onto a 8 GB flash device, making the experimental installer neccessary to maximise size of the persistent overlay file - But who would want only the CD version on a flash device of that size? That was my reason for saying that the experimental flash installer only has benefits for media larger than 8 GB.

  3. #43
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    First. My Apologies for the inexperience. And thanks for staying with me.

    ... but (as i understand it) this PC is not the PC You are still having boot Problems with - Is that correct?
    Yes I cannot yet boot any of the 3 sticks on My PC. *I've since corrected the ide and ata cards to boot correctly so no hardware conflict or tricking in bios anymore.
    Can You boot on Your PC from a flash medium written by the "traditional" Knoppix flash installer?
    This was interesting in that half way through traditional install my PC recycled and went completely to the initial screen as if rebooting - I swear - It came back up and finished the install to the 8GB SanDisk and it booted on the other PC. I've since redid it- for confidence - but pretty interesting. *This was using the traditional installer. And it does not boot My PC.

    If that is the case, then Your PC firmware/BIOS might dislike flash media with multiple partitions.
    Shucks, I thought that it might be solved by eliminating the extra usb ide card. I have 2 usb on the back of case from motherboard and two usb on front of new case. And four on an add on ide that was purchased before the new case. In short I thought I may have a usb conflict. So I took the ide card out and still no boot from back or front.

    Thanks for the explanation on advantages above 8GB.

    It's crazy. I updated Bios and all items in PC and still no usb boot. I have ran Linux off hard drive with win xp pro as multiple boot from floppy * but not yet from usb. Today a friend and old think pad 500MB RAM and 20GB hard disk booted the *8GB USB.


    -------------------
    Formatted by moderator to make posting readable
    wps
    Last edited by Werner P. Schulz; 05-14-2013 at 11:16 PM.

  4. #44
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    Otherwise usable Knoppix install on USB flash not booting on PC of ttopp

    Hello ttopp
    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Yes I cannot yet boot any of the 3 sticks on My PC.
    (I've since corrected the ide and ata cards to boot correctly so no hardware conflict or tricking in bios anymore.)

    This was interesting in that half way through traditional install my PC recycled and went completely to the initial screen as if rebooting - I swear - It came back up and finished the install to the 8GB SanDisk and it booted on the other PC. I've since redid it- for confidence - but pretty interesting.

    *This was using the traditional installer. And it does not boot My PC.
    It looks like we begin to corner this problem. It is specific to Your PC. Your PC can not boot Knoppix from flash storage devices, yet it can boot FreeDOS (the SpinRite medium You mentioned). We can not be sure yet, but it looks like this happens to Your PC for media created with the traditional as well as the experimental Knoppix flash installers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Shucks, I thought that it might be solved by eliminating the extra usb ide card. I have 2 usb on the back of case from motherboard and two usb on front of new case. And four on an add on ide that was purchased before the new case.

    In short I thought I may have a usb conflict. So I took the ide card out and still no boot from back or front.
    The next steps You could try to corner this problem further:

    • Could You make sure that Your PC is not one of these newfangled things which can only boot via UEFI method? (EFI boot could work with a "newer" Knoppix 7.1, but is not yet there).
    • If You haven't already done that, could You try booting Your Knoppix flash device using diffrent USB ports (or with a "MultiCard" USB adapter on different USB ports, in case You are using a SDHC memory card or other flash device).
    • Try booting from a Knoppix CD/DVD with cheat codes: Attach Your flash media, boot from optical media and use the command
      Code:
      sudo fdisk -l
      to determine the device name given to Your not-yet-bootable Knoppix flash medium. Then reboot from DVD again, and at the prompt use the cheat code
      Code:
      knoppix bootfrom=/dev/sdb1/KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX
      . (Assuming fdisk -l told You before that Your Knoppix flash storage device has been assigned name /dev/sdb.).
    • Create a Knoppix boot floppy (which then can continue "chain-"booting from flash medium) and use that instead of a DVD. That was a common approach when USB boot was not yet supported by many PC BIOS, IIRC.

    Good luck with that.

  5. #45
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    Good Morning,

    Thanks for the response. I don't understand it yet but I will read it slow, today. I am sorry for the re-formatting someone (Administrator) is doing to make this readable so have taken to just a 'reply' rather than 'with quote'. I will go back to the faqs and see where what and how to post properly. Again thanks for staying with me.

  6. #46
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    You are wellcome

    Hello ttopp
    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    Good Morning, Thanks for the response. I don't understand it yet but I will read it slow, today. I am sorry for the re-formatting someone (Administrator) is doing to make this readable so have taken to just a 'reply' rather than 'with quote'. I will go back to the faqs and see where what and how to post properly.
    I am sure it will suit Mr. Werner P. Schulz if he sees posts from You not needing reformatting.
    So You may refrain from including quotes - Just mention what You are replying to.

    You may ask for clarifications if You want to.

  7. #47
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    I will go back to the faqs and see where what and how to post properly.
    Read my comment at the bottom of #41 and use the icon "Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text"

  8. #48
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    That was fun. I actually saw the searching of the iso image for KNOPPIX. I first booted using the dvd. then in a terminal window I typed sudo fdisk -l (list) and found this for both 64gb and 16gb usb drives.

    Disk /dev/sdd: 62.8 GB, 62813896704 bytes
    64 heads, 32 sectors/track, 59904 cylinders, total 122683392 sectors
    Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
    Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    Disk identifier: 0x00000000

    Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
    /dev/sdd1 * 1 81631231 40815615+ c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
    /dev/sdd2 81631232 122683391 20526080 83 Linux
    knoppix@Microknoppix:~$

    Disk /dev/sdd: 16.0 GB, 16008609792 bytes
    64 heads, 32 sectors/track, 15267 cylinders, total 31266816 sectors
    Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
    Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
    Disk identifier: 0x00000000

    Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
    /dev/sdd1 * 1 8433663 4216831+ c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
    /dev/sdd2 8433664 31266815 11416576 83 Linux
    knoppix@Microknoppix:~$

    I then booted with the dvd and at the knoppix penguin I typed knoppix bootfrom=/dev/sdd1/KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX and here is where it says, searching ISO for KNOPPIX ?

  9. #49
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    Did the boot from DVD continue to load from flash storage?

    Hello ttopp
    Quote Originally Posted by ttopp View Post
    I then booted with the dvd and at the knoppix penguin I typed knoppix bootfrom=/dev/sdd1/KNOPPIX/KNOPPIX and here is where it says, searching ISO for KNOPPIX ?
    What did happen after the searching? Did it just hang there? Nothing?

    For both USB flash devices, I would expect the boot loader from the DVD to mount the partition image file from the flash storage and to continue booting to the Knoppix desktop, but without mounting the persistent overlayfile system on /dev/sdd2. Did that work?

  10. #50
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    The documentation says
    knoppix fromhd=/dev/sda1 Boot from previously copied CD-Image
    knoppix bootfrom=/dev/sda1/KNX.iso Access image, boot from ISO-Image.
    I think one should try
    Code:
    knoppix fromhd=/dev/sdd1

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